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Post by pitch on Jul 30, 2005 23:06:11 GMT -5
Props to everyone for not starting this thread. Shame on me for having to be the one to do it. A while back, a few months actually, me and GustaffGlyde had a short PM conversation about this - I don't remember how it came up, which is weirdin' me out. I looked, and I don't think I see this anywhere, which surprised me. If I missed something feel free to yell at me, call me horrible names, and whack me in the head with something. I bet you're expecting me to come here and tell you that I think Juno is female because of his lovely purple hair and his completely non-masculine voice. That or you're expecting me to say that people are stupid for even thinking such things. I'm going to do neither, and I'm going to like it. I don't doubt that people won't believe me on this, as I believe Juno was referred to with Male Pronouns in MML, so ultimately his gender has been noted. But in light of some recent bs being pulled at Capcom, I think I can actually make a point here. Back in May, I was theorizing over what Trigger looked like in his System days. And the painting in the museum gave me some insight into what his armor might've looked like. > Take a look if you likeAnd I was posting this on an tiny little forum, show people Trigger's totally old skool armor... and I noticed something. Something else. The white one... Something odd... Long purple hair. The white armor. An overall Juno-esque appearence. It had to be Juno, right? But it couldn't be... > Tell me I'm not the first one to notice thisSo I've been sitting on this for a while and not saying anything because I figured either - It's super old news
- It can't change anything, because they call Juno a HE.
Enter Serenade. Serenade is from Battle Network, and it appeared in the third game. Long story short, Serenade was first genderless; assumed female, turned out to be male, then turned out to be... both. ...both genders? The idea was that Serenade was supposed to be "divine". In a sense, beyond gender. And recently I've been thinking... why not Juno? Couldn't he be beyond gender? I mean they call him a he, but maybe that's just to have something to call him. ...that's a weak point though. ...but then I got to thinking. Why Juno? And that would make more sense. Juno is in a high place of authority in Kattleox, and for that matter, probably in the System in general. A gender might affect his ability to do his job. Foolish pride, foolish compassion, foolish whatever. It would get in the way. The system's supposed to be cold and emotionless like that. Well this is just my new take on the whole issue. I'm probably horribly horribly wrong somehow, but then that's why I don't make topics usually. So yeah. Bash my ideas in, as you see fit. Contribute your own ideas. Whatever. I'm gunna go hide now.
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Post by Servbot42 on Jul 31, 2005 0:04:14 GMT -5
"Boob?" ;D I love it!
But that does makes sense...
...boob?.... ;D
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Post by Santa Melty on Jul 31, 2005 0:14:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember that painting. The first time I saw it in the museum, I knew it was referencing something that was going to happen later in the game. Of course, I had completely forgotten about it by the time I got to Juno. It was not until my second time through that I caught that. I always assumed Juno was genderless, although I enjoy joking otherwise. The facial features and build is clearly female, yet both Trigger and Data refer him to as a man in the game. I confused me for a while, but eventually, I just settled that he was a she, since I got tired of trying to reason either side. 50-50 is pretty good odds that I’ll be right. Then, in the most recent NamcoxCapcom, they gave him a man’s voice. This set me on the idea that Capcom just doesn’t care. Thus, there is no gender. Merely Juno. Also, them referring to Juno as a man furthers that idea. There is no word in the English language that refers to a person unspecific of gender in the same context as he/she. There is ‘it’, but that refers to an object, and not a person. I guess they consider Juno to be a person. When a word is needed in a situation where a gender-unspecific person or group of people needs to be identified, some form of ‘man’ is used, be it ‘he’, ‘men’, or what have you. Of course, if it’s plural, they can simply use ‘people’, but I see ‘man’ or ‘men’ used more often. Of course, I’m no scholar in language arts, so feel free to correct me. o.o Edit: Well fine, I said that I ‘always assumed’. That’s not exactly true. The issue of Juno’s gender was speculation filed in the back of my mind that I never got around to really thinking about. But now that you have forced my thoughts into some form of organization, I think I’m on safe ground with this. Maybe not. If not, I’m close enough.
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Post by pitch on Jul 31, 2005 0:29:14 GMT -5
No, I don't believe we using the english language have any means of referring to someone genderlessly. You could just as well say Juno's a robot, therefore an "it", but naw. ...so I'm not the first to say he's genderless... darn. did you notice the boob though?
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Post by Santa Melty on Jul 31, 2005 0:51:52 GMT -5
Yup, I noticed. Like I said, the build is very female. Not only in the portrait, but Juno himself. Look at the armor. Head, chest, waist, hips. Perhaps it’s not exactly as feminine as I make it out to be, but if we’re comparing to the features of each gender, he definitely looks more like a women then a man.
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Post by pitch on Jul 31, 2005 0:58:26 GMT -5
...darn. well so much for thinkin I'd actually found something new and interesting.
I don't really see much in actual Juno's design other than the hair that would suggest feminine-ness, though.... =/ But I guess so.
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Post by Santa Melty on Jul 31, 2005 1:23:34 GMT -5
Meh, the series has been mused over so much that there is precious little left to actually discover. But you went beyond that. You linked various details together to form one picture, and was the first to advocate all of these ideas compiled on a single thread. And you had that little thing where you circled the breasts in the picture and labeled it. All of that is plenty enough to merit you for. The shape of the face was another thing. Men are usually drawn with larger chins and smaller eyes. I don’t know why, but they are. Juno has large eyes and a short face. On a side note, did you know Juno’s eyes are black and white? Amazing. o.o
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Post by pitch on Jul 31, 2005 1:32:49 GMT -5
Fair enough. I never considered the shape of his face, but I suppose it's true. I guess it is rounder than a man's face... ....Juno has large eyes though? o.o that I certainly don't see. I'd question whether Juno actually has eyes if it wasn't so absurd. I'd half expect there to be Reaver-eyes under those tight-shut eyelids of his. But that's another story for another day.
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Post by Santa Melty on Jul 31, 2005 1:41:40 GMT -5
Right when he wakes up. Just as he is released, he opens his eyes and smiles. That would actually make a wonderful scene to draw... *makes note of it*
Actually, are those eyes real? There is something I’ve never considered. Black and white eyes... Perhaps they were drawn on with pencil...
Well, I know what I’ll be pondering during my next English lesson.
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Post by Dashe on Aug 8, 2005 13:23:58 GMT -5
Juno? A girl? Bah! There are a LOT of feminine guys in anime (like about half the Sohma guys from Fruits Basket, Nuriko from Fushigi Yuugi, and Marron from Sorcerer Hunters). I always thought Juno's femininity is just an anime thing, like his pink hair (and don't even say he's a girl because of the hair; Tomba had pink hair as well.)
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Aug 8, 2005 13:28:45 GMT -5
Juno is more likely neither with that mechanical body of its. That body is running on wires and stuff. So I think he is not a girl or boy.
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Post by pitch on Aug 8, 2005 14:12:06 GMT -5
Juno? A girl? Bah! There are a LOT of feminine guys in anime (like about half the Sohma guys from Fruits Basket, Nuriko from Fushigi Yuugi, and Marron from Sorcerer Hunters). I always thought Juno's femininity is just an anime thing, like his pink hair (and don't even say he's a girl because of the hair; Tomba had pink hair as well.) I know what a bishounen is, but he has breasts in the picture!
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Post by fAB on Aug 8, 2005 15:30:32 GMT -5
Okay... I've come in here with an open mind on the subject, and I'll leave my 2 cents worth, even though my original opinion hasn't been changed...
First off, the basis of the painting is hardly worth considering. Juno's very feminine, of that there's no doubt. Appearance, manner, voice, sure, I agree. Lots of people wonder about the gender. The origin of the painting has been a topic of discussion in several places. Personally, I would put my money on it being of carbon-origin. I doubt there are many artists in the System, particularly ones who would work in such a traditional medium as paints. Agreed? So, even if the painting is representing an actual event witnessed by said carbon artist, it's obviously NOT an exact likeness of Juno, but that artist's interpretation of Juno. Therefore, just as people in the real world confuse Juno for a female, so could have the artist, and exaggerated the "Boob" as you call it.
Therefore, I cross out the validity of the painting. The actual Juno model, while still having shape to the chest, does not stick out that far. As a matter of fact, Teisel's chest armor is actually more pointed than Juno's. Ever noticed? I've made 3D models of both of them, so I certainly noticed. No one's debating about Teisel's gender! XP
Still, that isn't Juno's only feminine trait, as has already been discussed. Thus, we must ask why... As I was reading this thread, I was suddenly reminded of a reference my uncle made years ago when Megaman Juno was mentioned in his presence. The Legends series has a good many religious undertones/references when you get right down to it, particularly where the System is concerned. Now I hate to give potential fuel to the Juno-is-female supporters here, but I just checked the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, as my uncle did. "Juno, in Roman religion, a chief goddess..." "...was connected with all aspects of the life of women..." and so it goes. Obviously the creators had in mind a very feminine character, and thus the use of the name Juno worked quite suitably.
However, for my final judgement, I look directly at the game itself. Trigger says, "It's a man? A person?" If the name Megaman Juno wasn't enough to verify it, then Trigger's comment was. I think they particularly made him say it in that way, and at the moment you first see Juno, so as to establish what would otherwise be a difficult job of judging gender. As I see it, that is the official word from Capcom, and that's what I'll stick by!
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Post by pitch on Aug 8, 2005 15:38:42 GMT -5
Well I don't even really believe he's a she, I go more with the "beyond gender" thing, but what you said makes sense. One thing I'd like to know, though, where else has anyone asked about the painting? O.o I read through just about every thread here, and skimmed MMLU's boards before I went and made any assumptions about it.
And I've known about the mythological thing for a while too... didn't I say something about that when I made the thread? *checks* ...shoot, no I didn't. I knew I was forgetting something when I posted that.
Regarding what Trigger says... not to make stupid arguements that I can't support in any way, but it could be a mistranslation(like what happened with Serenade in BN3). But I have no proof of that, so I'll shut up. I still think he's genderless though. =/
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Aug 8, 2005 16:26:31 GMT -5
That is true, a mistranslation.
Game example: All of your bases are belong to us.
Of coarse I still think he has no gender at all. Just by looking at how its body was made gives me that theory. I think it is that with not a doubt. And if it was either it would be a boy. You can listen to the voice and it has more of a male quality. Besides, many males have long hair. You don't have to be a girl to have that.
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