|
Post by pitch on Oct 21, 2005 7:39:15 GMT -5
I don't really know how a sequel would work going by End of Evangelion's ending... @.@ An epilogue maybe, in OAV form, but I think Eva is meant to be left open ended. Alternate realities are always phun. That manga or whatever it is sounds pretty non-interesting, but ya know not all stories have to start out like Eva - infact, most don't.
The thing Evas lack that sets them apart from the Angels was the S2 organ. Eva's design was based off of Adam though. *nod* And angels to us are like kinda distant relatives. All of humanity started from Lilith, but somewhere it seems the Tree of Knowledge came into play.. But yeah, there're a lotta similarities.
|
|
|
Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 21, 2005 8:42:59 GMT -5
So i was on the right track about Angels being alternate us. Just maybe I should of worded it more like that. They should keep mking alternate endings. Wouldn't it be sad and funny at the same time if at the end Shinji woke up and said "Man, that was a weird dream?" I do agree, Kaoru is one of the coolest. But to me he can't replace Rei. Sort of like you and Yuna. I wonder if they could possibly mix Megaman Legends and NGE. It would most likely suck sadly. ....Interesting ideas for a fanfiction are coming...imagine if Megaman had to help stop Yui. Maybe I should leave Megaman out though. Mixing him in this IDEA could be for the worst. If they are going to make a alternate ending, it would be nice to extend the series. Not over size it though. If you give a anime too many episodes it sometimes looses it grip. Of coars if they did it right...
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 21, 2005 16:27:47 GMT -5
It's more like we're an alternate Angel. The spawn of one of them. They could exist without us, but without them WE wouldn't be. And for some reason, whatever caused Lilith to give birth to us caused us to be Non-Angelic, or mayhaps something there afterward - though the Tree of Knowledge if I recall correctly, is never mentioned. So if you wanna look at it as alternates, the Angels are what we could be if we aquire the Tree of Life. Eva got a little bit redundant toward the middle by itself(though the latter half got back on track). I don't think it needs to be longer. In fact I think the ending it has is the most interesting possible ending - albeit maybe not the happiest. But having it all be a dream would kill the very foundation of the anime - the realism to it all. The line between Kaoru and Ayanami, and Yuna and Sera follows pretty much the same path. I think though, that Sera experiences a whole world of growth in her character more than Ayanami. Rei - and you can debate this all you want - was mechanical, but Sera wasn't and wanted to be("Perhaps by defeating you I can purge myself of these troublesome emotions" ~ Sera, MML2 (might not be exactly quoted right...I'm good, but not that good ))). It's hard to explain, but Rei got played too by the end of the movie. Shinji was, no doubt, the better choice of people to put the fate of the world in - I'll give her that.. Despite Shinji's emotional issues, Gendo probably would've used the entire force behind the Third Impact to achieve a more selfish end. But see, and maybe Rei didn't know this, but Yui could ultimately win either way(except in the case of Kaoru triggering the impact, which would've achieved SEELE's ends.) But regardless, Shinji is the most easily manipulated a person can get, and Yui played off that and in the end won out like crazy. I personally think that in combining Adam and Lilith, Rei should've suicided. No one can win that way. The angels are gone; the Tree of Life not recoverable. SEELE can't evolve Humanis to a single-bodied state, Gendo can't be with Yui again, Yui can't reach her god-like status, and most importantly, MORE THAN 2 PEOPLE HAVE A CHANCE TO SURVIVE. Sure, maybe did Rei mean well(I know I've been saying that it was the Yui-ness in Rei that made her go for Shinji, but people seem to be ignoring it so I'm trying to look at it from a different view), but the fate of the world is too much to entrust to a boy of 14 who hates the very world in question. The decision was potentially heroic, if only Shinji could've overcome probably just one more emotional barrier, but it doesn't play out that way. Rei put too much on Shinji's shoulders. It was, dare I say, a stupid thing to do. Rei came to trust Shinji more than Gendo. That was pretty much the extent of her character development by the end of the show. MegaMan Legends and Evangelion have a lot in common. But the thing is that they draw from the same source - religious stories and myths. And they both take the same angle, that being that you can't have good without bad. But the story is different. The characters don't have a whole lot in common. The System and the Instrumentality Project are a bit similar, maybe, but it's a Crisis vs Conspiracy thing. In Legends, or prior to rather, humanity was on the brink of extinction. The System was needed. Evangelion though. We take 2 Angels hostage, kill the ones who come to save them, and try to use the two we have to become immortal. The two aren't compatible, despite their similiarities.
|
|
|
Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 21, 2005 17:23:30 GMT -5
Maybe so, but I justt think Rei is has a more powerful devlopment, well maybe not more powerful but she fascinates me the most. The way she behaves I BELIEVE, don't take like a correction or as not listening but as a belief, why she behaved like she did was out of a possible misery. Then again, she just doesn't know what or what are feeling so she seperates herself. When she does feel emotion however, she is confused. And she did feel for Gendo. I'm not sure but did she or did she not slap Shinji for something he said? I have a picture of this if interested. The sad thing is he should have felt more for her. If no Yui was in her she could just die and he'd be fine. It was great emotionally that she trusted Shinji. Because wasn't Shinji the one to actually care for her. Sure, it started as a mom similarity thing, but was there not more. He'd of cared either way if she died. It shows that in a episode. The one were she sacrificed herself. I'll say more later. I have to leave.
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 21, 2005 17:53:35 GMT -5
I mentioned the slap a long time ago. "Don't you trust your father's work?" Shinji babbles on about how horrible a father Gendo is and Rei slaps him clean across the face and walks away. Not a terribly hard slap, but a kinda "Get over yourself!" thing. That was early on though, and things change after that. Again, though, just about everything between Shinji and Rei before you find out what Rei is, is foreshadowing. Gendo too. Ya know? Think about it.
At first you see Gendo and Rei getting along well and she pretty much cold-shoulder's Shinji. I remember I sat there scratchin my head so much I practically tore it open wondering why because Gendo wasn't the coolest of guys. Shortly after that there's the episode with the 5th Angel(Ramiel; big diamond shaped guy) where Shinji opens the superheated hatch to make sure Rei's okay, and you see Rei draw the connection. Now whether Shinji went and did such a reckless thing out of love or whatever is debateable but, honestly. If it weren't for Ayanami holding up that shield, that woulda been Shinji, and he'd be an ass if he didn't do anything. Subsequently he also never knew that Rei's body was so expendable, which is why she's so willing to suffer. Not that I'd know, but the feeling of knowing you won't be dead even if you die must make pain very easy to take. Shinji doesn't know this though. So the fact that she's willing to go to such lengths for his father, and then later for him seems strange, but really it doesn't matter at all to her. All in the line of duty. Anyone would worry about someone who puts their life on the line for them. It's not the same as his attraction to her early on.
As for Rei being miserable... There is no point in me saying anything at all to that end since you pretty much said that regardless of what I say or do, you "believe" that, but show me any indication of any sadness in Rei.. I never saw any at all. o.O
|
|
|
Post by Santa Melty on Oct 21, 2005 21:18:27 GMT -5
Ah... Now I recall why I never liked this anime very much. Far too much thinking involved. This is the type of story they’d give you in a college course and tell you to analyze the blood out of. I need something mindless and straightforward. Like that alternate reality manga you mentioned. Perhaps I’ll read that. o.o
Just my two-cents here, but a random bit of information I read somewhere... In some religion or other, be it Christianity or one of its many spin-offs, there were two types of trees in the garden of Eden. The tree of Life, and the tree of Wisdom, which you mentioned. Apparently, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge against God’s will, angels were sent to guard the tree of Life. It was a choice between the fruit of Knowledge, or the ability to differentiate between good and evil (or something to that effect), or the fruit of Life, which was immortality. Humans got the former, and the angels got the latter. With conspiracies thicker then potato soup flying around, I’m not really sure how many humans in the series have a clear opinion as to what is good and what is evil, but the immortality, I think, is represented in the angels quite well as the S2 engine/organ. The humans may have later mass-produced the organ for the Eva series, but that’s beside the point. These two fruit are supposed to represent different aspects of God, and when they come together, they are supposed to be able to grant some brand of infinite power. Humans already had the fruit of knowledge, and thus, once Shinji and 01 got fused in with the Tree of Life, which appeared in EoE, Shinji, who was in the center of it all, was granted god-like powers, and was thus the one able to determine humanity’s fate. Of course, looking back, Yui was also there, so I can only assume that Shinji decided to allow himself and the human race back to live on Earth, which would have worked out perfectly for Yui, who, if what you say about her is true, would, with her equally-considerable god-like power, have chosen to retain her godliness without hesitation.
Makes some sense, although there are, I’m sure, a few distinct points I’m forgetting to make...
And why is it that Rei appeared so happy around Gendo anyway? If she really has no sense of what emotion to feel when, or what have you, then I guess she could have been ordered to act like that around Gendo, although I wouldn’t take Gendo as the type of person to order Rei to act happy around him for the heck of it. Assuming that that wasn’t the case, why in the world would she care about Gendo, besides the fact that he was the one who had her created? Oddly, I’ve always thought that Gendo all but wanted to pretend she was his child. Since he wasn’t confident enough to accept Shinji as being his child, I suppose he may have simply turned to Rei, who he knew wouldn’t last very long anyway, but again, Gendo comes off as much to stable a person to try something like that. But back to Rei, I guess her behavior could be partially explained by the idea that she has emotions, but doesn’t know what to feel when, yet learns over time. She may have known what to feel around Gendo, but no one else. We at least know that the first Rei was around for a while— we saw her as a child in the flashback of the senior Dr. Akagi working on the Magi. That could also explain Gendo’s apparent fondness for her... Rei I mean.
But if she was simply doing what she was told, then it seems strange that she would even have opinions on things like people. If she really did come to “respect” Shinji more then Gendo by the end of the series, it must say something about her human qualities. If she was merely an android-like clone thing, then why bother pondering subjects so irrelevant to simply following orders? I’ll agree with Reaverguy/Rei Lover over there on the count that she does seem to show more thought then would otherwise be expected from your stereotypical android. Perhaps she may have learned such things as choosing whom she has affections for or when to feel misery over time, but I don’t believe that that point was ever reached within the series. And let us not forget that there is some Yui mixed in with that Lilith, so it’s not an entirely clean slate we’re talking about here. Rei surely would have inherited some personal traits and ideals from Yui, even if they aren’t immediately apparent.
But I’m starting to repeat things now...
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 21, 2005 22:32:39 GMT -5
I can't win with you people. reaverguy completely ignores the bit about Yui being in Rei and mltmlt22 brings it back up. >.<
On the same note of Yui-ness, that's the point I'd meant to make about how Rei and Gendo get along so well, and why Rei slowly gets easier around Shinji after she sees the similarity between him and Gendo in the 5th Angel episode.. Gendo was definitely nicer to Rei, and treated her almost like his own child(though I think in the later years of her life, she may've served a "different" purpose... let's not talk about that).
I should go more in depth in the whole "Rei learns as time goes on idea". First off I think of Rei like a carbon in MML2. They can learn. Nut, well yeah, she's 14, and while her body is mass-produced by NERV, she actually did have a childhood, and did grow before the things you see in Eva. Thing is though, she was probably trained to pilot Eva for the better part of that, which would explain her attitude in the beginning, that and the fact that she knows her body is expendable(she mentions being the third Rei after selfdestructing to save Shinji). And she being the only pilot at that time had no need for contact with other human beings. Enter Shinji. First off she's about as cold to him as she is to Asuka. I think the "showdown in Tokyo 3"(I think that was the name) episode was the one that started the change in her attitude toward Shinji. And it can't be too hard to tell that Gendo's an ass, albeit part of the moral of the story was that everyone has their story, and he did indeed have his, even so that could've been part of her little rebelling bit in End of Eva. That or the Yui-ness. Like you said, it's complicated. I wouldn't mind taking classes on it though because it's wicked interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Santa Melty on Oct 21, 2005 23:14:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I brought it up, but it was only as a side note for my thoughts on Gendo. Anyway, I was agreeing with you. I think. *goes to read old posts* Gendo really isn’t a bad person. If I remember, he actually thought he was doing Shinji a favor by keeping his distance from him. Or perhaps that just proves your point. Either way, his intent seemed sincere enough. The only people he really deceived were the ones up at SEELE, but no one likes them anyway. The carbons may be different from Rei on one level. The carbons can basically be considered the equivalent of us humans. Thus, they instinctually know what to feel when. Rei doesn’t have that. But that’s been gone over already.
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 21, 2005 23:42:11 GMT -5
XD yeah we're all repeating ourselves at this point. Eva's better discussed one on one. That way ya know everyone's on the same page >.<
iirc, Gendo didn't know what to do, so he did nothing and tried to keep a distance from Shinji, lest he do the wrong thing.. Of course if he knew anything about Shinji at all, he'd have known that he should've done the exact opposite. But he was also deceiving the pilots and those at NERV. Fuyutski was the only one who really knew what Gendo's intentions were(that and maybe Dr. Akagi(I can't spell Ritsuko's name either)). But I suppose that wanting to bring Yui back was a good thing. While I definitely doubt it, though stranger things have been suggested - it's possible that was for Shinji. Who really knows anyway?
And the last bit... well I meant just the learning mechanism of carbons really. Carbons aren't humans but their able to process and store information in those human-like heads of theirs.
|
|
|
Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 22, 2005 1:11:07 GMT -5
More name changes huh? I'll most likely join in the club. Anyway I did believe the Yui thing. I even acknowledged that. I thing we need to quit argueing about Rei. We each have good facts. It all adds up to one thing which I'm not going to start arguements. I do agree Rei is like a carbon. Carbons are really the same. The reason I stay by her emotion is each little thing, also big ones shows something. The quote "It's not that she doent have emotions, but that she doesn't know what emotions are," said the creator and director. Also, sometimes no emotion show te most emotion. But lets quit bickering. I too would take a class on this. The dream thing with Shinji early was a joke. I'd really hate that. Gendo is a case of some good and bad. He tried to do the best for Shinji, yet also he helped put a lot of people in danger to bring back Yui. But that is were he relates with the creator. The both wanted their love back. He should have tried to live in harmony with Shinji with Shinji and possibley Rei. In a way, much of this is like Frankenstein. Any agreements. Man try to be God. Make own beings etc. It would be interesting if there was a Gabriel.
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 22, 2005 11:55:46 GMT -5
Gabriel's a different page of the book though. It wouldn't be consistant with the other angels I mean. Of course, to me the allusions to crucifiction in the anime make no sense(Lilith nailed to a cross, "Unit 01 has been crucified" - some SEELE guy, End of Evangelion, the Eva series crucifying themselves...) So I suppose there could've been a messenger of sorts somewhere in there. Maybe. Back to Rei.. by showing no emotion she's not showing a lot of emotion, she's showing... no emotion. Blows your mind, don't it? It's part of the plot. You're supposed to wonder about it, but don't blow it outta proportion, because then they explain it later on. She's meant to be a machine. The Dummy Plug System ring any bells?
|
|
|
Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 22, 2005 15:35:09 GMT -5
Your sort of right, but I don't think she was to be a TOTAL machine. She was more than a robot or android. The dummy plug is her bodies without her soul. Those are mindless substitutes. Rei does have brains. She has given opinions. She is suppose to not show emotiom MOSTLEY, SHE HAS SHOWN SOME.
I know her not showing much emotion is a part of the plot. But she is not a total machine.
The Gabriel idea was for a alternate ending. I may possibley do a fanfiction on a alternate ending. Its about Yui taking over and and Shinji, Rei, and Asuka have a ultimate balttle awaiting. That is a very shortand rough discription though. I'll give full detail later when I'm not that lazy. I'm still not sure of how I'll work all of it out.
Possible titles:
NGE: The Ultimate Apocalypse NGE: 2017 NGE: Final Apocalypse NGE: Yui's Wrath I Was A Teenage Angel!!! (sorry, that was a bad joke) NGE: Disciples of Yui (I'm thinking about saying Yui is like a oppisite of Jesus Christ) NGE: War of Yui NGE: Final Wars NGE: End of Days
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 22, 2005 15:45:04 GMT -5
Yes, but Rei was made to pilot Eva. She was like a prototype of the Dummy Plug. And I don't really mean to say she's a total machine, just that you're blowing every little thing she does way out of proportion, and not really looking at the big picture. Because in Eva, just about everything is significant to the plot.
|
|
|
Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 22, 2005 15:53:47 GMT -5
I know. I'm don't think every little thing is huge. And that is one of the reasons she listens to them so well. She believes it is all she can do. She says in the manga to not pilot eva would be death. So she seemingly loves her mission. One of the reasons she interests me most.
It was funny when Asuka said something like 'You'ed jump off a cliff if they told you too. She said of coarse. That is a unique and interesting quality that she alway follows orders. It seems like she may have once broke them though. Did she?
|
|
|
Post by pitch on Oct 22, 2005 16:50:44 GMT -5
But you are blowing it out of proportion. Like the fact that she blindly follows orders, how you see that as anything but mechanical, I'll never understand. It's what she was made to do. That's why. The only time I can recall offhand that Rei did anything not expected of her was in End of Evangelion, and I think at the point where she self destructed to save Shinji, but she'd have been ordered to do so no doubt by Gendo(assuming she wasn't already). Unit 01 is Gendo's main interest and the preservation of it is worth another Rei clone and Unit 00. Pity, I liked Unit 00 though... I may be missing something though, as it's been a while since I watched. I gotta find the notes I took on it. >.<
|
|