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Post by Santa Melty on Oct 19, 2005 22:41:09 GMT -5
Interesting. I knew about the conspiracy between SEELE and NERV, but when was it shown that all of this was Yui’s doing? I don’t remember anything that hinted to that. At least, not from her herself... The only time I remember seeing her alive was during the flashback to when she and Gendo were naming Shinji, and when she was testing Unit 1 and was absorbed into it. What was the tip off? Gendo also seemed pretty attached to Rei considering she was so expendable, helping her from the entry plug and all. I suppose that makes some sense, considering she’s supposed to be a clone of Yui, but it seems rather uncharacteristic of him nonetheless... So, the white chap nailed to the cross was actually Lilith, was it? And Adam was stuck in the embryo, which was implanted in Gendo’s hand after Kaji brought it to NERV? Aye... Just so I got this now... Adam was discovered at the South Pole, yes? This triggered the second impact. SEELE was established as a sort of substitute government and the impact was investigated, where Adam, in embryo form, was found. SEELE, following the tellings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, expected the Angels and decided that they wanted the whole instrumentality deal, so they set up NERV, who’s purpose was apparently to fight off the angels. But that was only a guise, as it was really just... SEELE’s muscle, were they? I’m not sure what SEELE was intending them for. Been too long. Anyway... Yui was one of the ones developing the Eva units and found out about all of this. She decided she wanted to be immortal and had herself absorbed into the Eva. Shinji would be able to pilot it, and Gendo, who would want to get her back, would use her clone, Rei, to try to extract her from the Eva. However, Gendo would be under the impression that the Angels would be the ones to trigger the third impact, and would try to use Adam’s embryo with Rei to get Yui back. Not sure how that situation came about though. The Angels, on the other hand, were broken off of Adam during the second impact, and tried to seek out Adam again after they awoke from each of their own embryo forms. But everyone thought that Lilith, who was stuck to the cross in Central Dogma by the Lance of Longinus, was actually Adam, who had been reduced himself to his embryo form and stuck into Gendo’s hand for safekeeping. In the end, it all worked out to Yui’s plan. When Gendo decided to try whatever he intended to try with Rei, Rei took the embryo and merged herself with Lilith before Gendo could do... whatever it is he planned on doing. This brought about the whole instrumentality thing. Yui, in Eva form, was absorbed into the being created when Adam and Lilith merged, along with Shinji. And that’s all I have. Shinji was apparently separated from the Eva and Yui when he decided that he didn’t like the instrumentality, so I suppose Yui got stuck in that godly Tree of Life/Rei being thing. How Asuka got back is beyond me. But is that mostly correct? o.ô
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Post by pitch on Oct 19, 2005 23:30:54 GMT -5
There's a flashback scene where Yui and I think Fuyutski(I can not spell this guy's name... >.<) were talking. She says something very foreshadowing about how humanity will one day perish, but Eva will remain forever. She later moves on to become part of Unit 01. From that I draw the connection, and it all really fits. I'll try to cover everything else as best I can.
In the end, you see Unit 01 hanging out there in space, more than likely definitely with Yui still residing in it. Asuka probably remained on Earth because that was what Shinji wanted.
Yes, Adam was found in Antarctica.
SEELE is really just some secret organization that works in the shadows of NERV. It's a big marionette show really.. I could diagram it if I wasn't lazy. But as far as I know, the only people who knew of SEELE(or at least knew of their real intentions) were the higher ups in NERV(Dr.Akagi, Gendo, and Fuyutski pretty much).
SEELE was going to use Eva's to trigger the Third Impact. Somewhere in the anime they mention that the Evangelions AREN'T made to fight off the Angels.
I'm pretty sure Gendo's plan was to have Rei bond with Lilith, then using Adam's embryo, bond with Lilith, himself. Which is probably why Adam was in Gendo's palm. But Rei took the embryo herself, and put the fate of the world in Shinji, who bent to his mother's will rather strangely, considering all the mental trials he went through, I'd have figured life would go on, but it seems that Shinji wanted to "start over" so to speak. Regardless, after all the confusing transformations and stuff(people becoming LCL, all joining together into the giant body of Angel Rei Ayanami, then Angel Rei is destroyed, and the Tree of Life turns back into Eva(I think there was actually a point where you saw Eva emerge out of Angel Rei's eye.). And somehow after somethign resembling the series ending(episodes 25 and 26), kinda rather than entering that world in the mind in which everyone seems to exist, somehow he and Asuka come out as the only two beings alive, And Yui aboard Unit 01 bids farewell to Shinji and floats back up into space.
You got the general idea, though. That's pretty much what's going on, as far as conspiracies and what they're intentions were. What I love though, is that that's just one level of the anime. So much to take from Eva.
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kobun40
Zakobon
learning about being diffrent
Posts: 108
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Post by kobun40 on Oct 20, 2005 11:02:05 GMT -5
My friend has the complete series collected(except for the movies.) He loves the part whe Koaru tells Shinji he loves him. Which makes me wonder about them?
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 15:14:54 GMT -5
Well.. and a lotta people jump on that issue("Is Shinji homosexual?" and what have you), fact is though, it can be approached more logically..
Some say that Kaoru doesn't really love Shinji at all and that what he did was also manipulation. That's a bit paranoid though... He didn't really need Shinji for anything, though I suppose Shinji's reluctance to kill him may have been involved there, should that have been another manipulative tactic.
I don't think so though.
Look I could get into Kaoru's obvious sexual interest in Shinji, but something people miss a lot on Shinji's end is this:
Kaoru is a male Ayanami.
The difference between Kaoru and Rei is Adam and Lilith, most likely. Though, I'm not sure if part of Yui resides in Kaoru, it seems evident that Kaoru was made from whatever was left of Adam, that's NOT in Gendo's palm, as he says something suggesting returning to where he came from when he almost fuses with Lilith(Had Kaoru fused with Adam, it probably would've been similar to what happened with Rei and Lilith in End of Eva). Kaoru also seems a bit less reserved than Rei, but that also probably has to do with the nature of the Angel from which he came(according to the myth, Lilith, supposedly shamed herself in front of god and that's supposedly why she wears a mask; Adam was more than likely different). But he directly states in his one episode to Rei that he's the same as her(some think that that was meant in terms of sexuality, but honestly, I don't think they'd throw such an absurdly open ended statement in there just to do that). He's like a male version of Rei that instead of emotionlessly blowing Shinji off every time they see each other, is pretty into him.
Though, the sexual interest Kaoru has in Shinji is pretty undeniable. Shinji said something about wanting to go to bed at one point in the episode and Kaoru excitedly added in "With me?". I don't think though, that Shinji returns that interest.
Kaoru being the 17th Angel is the Angel of freewill. While this also explains his sexuality, it stands as the most probable reason that Shinji is able to make such a mental connection with him. Being the Angel of Freewill, Kaoru's a very understanding person. Shinji's easily drawn to that because he's pretty much surrounded by disapproving eyes. But ultimately I don't think that goes to say anything about Shinji's sexuality, and in the long run it seems he turns out to really be interested in Asuka.
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 20, 2005 19:19:43 GMT -5
Alright, I need to watch the series again and refresh my memory. I belive that to quite possibley a brotherly love between Kaoru and Shinji. Kaoru is not the average person so don't expect the same. Rei seems more SCARED of Shinji with the things you look at. I don't believe she is totally uninterested. Plus Rei is made, and different people would look at a near death from different perspectives. At the beginnig Re pretty much HATED Shinji though because of JEAOLUSY. Also she was still learning about emotions. Possibly because there is not much in her life. The only person she cares about at the beginning is Gendo. She didn't like being reduced, for she was made for eva, which in the end she is the hero. She learns happiness after that. Or relearns it. When she was a innocent child she had a sweet smile. Even wave trooper here has to agree she is a hero . Also consider what she said to Asuka while mad. Rei: I wonder, are you only in this for praise? She was mad at her for her treatment to Shinji. This however may have been not for Shinjis well being, but out of hatred for Asuka's all around behavior. Also consider when Shinji picked up her trash. She blushed out of a loving shyness. I really am not sure if Shinji prefers one over the other. Over all, his favorite may be Misato. In the words of Hideakio Anno when talking to Megumi Hayashibara about voice acting for Rei "It's not that she doesn't have emoyion, but that she doesn't know what it is.," Beautiful words. I also remeber her rejecting Asuka as a friend, either she doesn't want any or Asuka was just to mean. I also must acknowledge a mental scene with Shinji. Shinji: NO ONE IS NICE TO ME!!! NO ONE!!! Rei: I'm nice to you. Gendo, I might add , never really interacted with Shinji because he though that might make things better. He felt helpless, and that his son would reject him. In the end it is like the bible begining all over agai. Shingi and Asuka like Adam and Eve after beig banned from the garden of Eden, but Shiji and Asuka for humanities sins. And the whole time the angels were not bad but fighting valiently for Adam and Lilith. NERV and SEELE were putting humanity through risk for a unearthly power, horever much of NERV didn't even know what was going on. SEELE were the master minds and Gendo is in on just to bring back Yui, who in reality is a heartless soul wanting all power ant to become a god. Rei, Kaoru, Lilith, and Adam merge with Shinji to giving him and let him choose humanities fate. This make sense him being her so. Is that right? Before much of that Kaoru had the chance to stop every thing but decides to let humanity thrieve and Shinji live. I remeber Rei watching. One of the lessons is we are all sinners, make mistakes, know fear, and have different reasons for are deeds than a heroic cause. Shinji did this for love and not hatred. Rei said so people remember her. I might not quite remeber her or Asuka. It seems Asuka's reasons were almost the same as Shinji. The point is Each of them have fears, douts, and wants. They all really want respect for the most part. Rei might not be as shy if she got more. One of the reasons I favore Rei is I can relate to her. I feel I only have few things I can do. The reason she really wants to battle is because its her purpose and she is willing to go through all pain. And Rei I was coked by Risuko's mom, coming was Rei II, who wasnot killed by the angel in the first episode were Rei and Shingi team up, but in the one with that strange angel that I think was a ring of energy. It killed Rei II, following up to the third Rei. Correct? Yes!! In the end there are a bunch of people for different reasons. Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and Misato aren't bad really. Theyb aren't fighting so the SEELE and NERV gets power. I know alot of this is out of order, but one more thing. Shinji in the last 2 episodes is confused and trying to run away. He realizes that he can enter his own world metally in order to keep him stable. And he can build on. However as EoE states he misunderstood and thought he always could runaway in fantasy, but ifinds that he must still face reality and can't always be in his world. He also finds that it is easier to face reality than to completely ignore it. In the end he gets the choice of uniting all souls and stopping Eath or to keep it alive. He quotes Misato on man having he will to survive, which at first he did not see after killing Kaoru out of guilt of killing his best friend. (Gasps for air.) Am I right for the most part? Alright, were can I get the meanings of there names? I believe I may already know it but what was Rei's other purpose?
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 20:07:47 GMT -5
...I think Gendo was ... with Rei... let's not get into that. You can probably guess what I mean though. Rei is no heroine, though, I most certainly do not agree with that. Have you been completely ignoring my posts? I don't remember Rei ever being angry at Shinji(with the exception of the 'Don't you trust your father?' scene early on in the anime). This is the problem with the dub I think. Voices may've conveyed emotions that they weren't supposed to. I've only seen a few episodes of the dub, but I noticed some little things like that(in Kaoru's intro scene when he says the bit about Song, he says it almost as if to say Ode to Joy is the greatest achievement of human culture, not song itself... >.<). There was never any anger between them. Just cold emotionless Rei blowing Shinji off. Heck, in one of the early episodes she was standing there completely naked while Shinji was all "I'm sorry! I just... your... card, yes..." she didn't even look at him, just put on her clothes, and walked away. Very mechanical. Never ANY jealousy though.. I think we may as well be talking about two different animes with these connections you're drawing. I'll have to look into the dub to see where all this is coming from, assuming that's what you watched. I don't remember any "loving shyness" at all. again, I think that may've been somethign that the dub exaggerated the wrong way. Asuka does pilot Eva for praise. There's the flashback scene where Asuka becomes a pilot and she's running excitedly to tell her mother, and then... finds her mother has hung herself... .... Seems she felt some duty after that to be the best Eva pilot and have everyone know it. It probably helps her to take her mind off of that awful awful scene. Rei rejects Asuka's friendship because Rei doesn't want or need any friends. I'm sure she rejected many other people's friendship offers throughout schooling. Toji or Aida said something about that in that one episode. That mental scene you're talking about.... Episode 25/26 no? Sounds like something out of the last episodes. That's Rei as she exists in Shinji's mind, not the actual Rei. And while it's true that Rei isn't as hard on Shinji as the others, I don't think it had any significance at all. The bit about Gendo is probably what got him chomped, but I think regardless of that Yui wouldn't have done things his way in the end at all. The ending of End of Eva you half have half don't. It IS meant to be like the beginning of Genesis, but in a different perspective. I think if anything, the whole idea was that 'Heaven is a State of Mind'. One of the few things I like about Yui is that she said something along those lines(I think it was more like "Anywhere can be heaven if you choose to live"). This is why SEELE had the wrong idea, and why they should be considered bad guys(apart from all the needless killing). Think kinda like MegaMan Legends with the System, and Elysium. Well, I don't really think you got the point about sinners either. Going back to that State of Mind thing, I think the idea, like so many other animes out there is that we're all Okay in spite of our past mistakes. Love yourself. As for reasons for piloting: Shinji - for Gendo's approval. Asuka - for her mother's approval Rei - because she's "bonded to it" (don't remember ever hearing the reason you said) It's not that they're totally respect-thirsty or anything like that, at least in the case of Shinji and Asuka, it's that they feel rejected, and they want to prove their own worth to themselves. I mean let's face it. Shinji never really got Gendo's approval. Asuka, well... in End of Eva she finally realized who Unit 02 was and felt great about that till Units 5 - 13 devoured the Eva. As for Rei and being bonded to Unit 00... that's probably just because the Evas were created from Lilith and so was she. I don't really think she wanted anything. And I don't really think Rei cared at all about respect. She does what she's told. I think that's about the only thing you've said about her that I saw in the anime... here I thought Eva got a good dub... you edited you post while I was posting so I hope you don't miss this bit. The world in the mind is something that actually happens though, not just something in Shinji's head. It wasn't a question of one being easier. In fact you have it completely backwards, as becoming the one being is what they said would be easier. Fact is though, the latter is a lot less interesting. No way to distinguish yourself from someone else? The idea was that our differences make us special, and it's not easy but we have to face reality in order to embrace them. Angel meanings: project-eva.ichigos.com/site_html/en/index.php?layout=rei&id=info_angels
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 20, 2005 20:25:40 GMT -5
Thank you. And no, I pay a lot of attention but personally have powerful disagreement. If you pay attention to Rei you can see all these things. And, the thig you said about Rei's personality that I believe is that she needs to learn, and at the begining she did blow Shinji off. But she soon does learn happiness tank to Shinji. The jealousy is in the manga. In Hideakio Anno's word when he taked to Rei's voice Actor:
Hideakio Anno: Its not that she doesn't have emotion, but that she doesn't know what it is.
Those were to words of the creator in a interview I read. Megumi Hayashabi did the voice flat in order to help show this. There is also a old saying:
Sometimes showing no emotion shows the most.
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 20:31:11 GMT -5
I do pay attention dude. Like Rei's smile in episode 8 or whatever. That was the most forced and fake smile I've ever seen. She smiles easily around Gendo though.
I'm probably gunna have to watch the dub before I can say anymore because I have no idea where you're coming up with these things... I won't be able to do that for a while though...
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 20, 2005 20:51:39 GMT -5
She just doesn't understand emotion. Forced or not, she is learning. And even if it was forced, it doesn't mean there was no happiness. I feel happiness and don't smile. And remeber what Hideakio said. He knows more than any of us. And I think we possily forgot and remebered different thing. I don't think the smile looked THAT forced. Posibly a little.
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 21:14:53 GMT -5
It was a pretty forced smile dude... Not like an "Okay I'm smiling now go away" smile, but it was excessive. She wasn't smiling because she was happy she was smiling because she was told to. That whole scene was a little awkward though. As far as Shinji went, it didn't really fit. You'd think the Instrumentality Project had happened already...
Need I remind you I mentioned the "She's learning" thing a while ago?
Look, I'm gunna download and watch the series again, and look out for the things you mentioned but I'm pretty sure I got this down. I think Shinji's attraction to Rei was foreshadowing to the fact that she's a clone of his mother. One of the things he notices about her is that when she's cleaning she acts very motherly. If that isn't foreshadowing I don't know what is. And in the "Both of you Dance Like you Want to Win!" episode, how she and Shinji can move in perfect synch naturally. It's foreshadowing. If it weren't Shinji would probably have ended up with Rei in the end instead of Asuka.
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 20, 2005 21:36:07 GMT -5
Well its simple thats the reason, I didn't say it wasn't. It is fore shadowing but the point is he is attracted to her. And all I really mean is even if it is forced it DOESN'T MEAN there was no happiness. Its more of a I Don't Know How Express than a I Don't Have Emotions thing with the emotions. Lets leave it at that. And why not watch it on adult swim? It starts tonight.
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 22:04:22 GMT -5
I don't have cable, dude. Eight Channels.
See, though, it's not that she doesn't know how to express it's that she doesn't know what to express. That's what she says. And she also says she doesn't know what to feel. No happiness there.
Shinji's attraction wasn't really attraction though, is my point. He was drawn to her because she was a recreation of his mother. Not quite his mother, but shockingly similar in appearence, and with a motherly manner about her.
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 20, 2005 22:25:46 GMT -5
Odd attraction isn't it. I alway thought it was a little strange. I wonder if Rei and Kaoru have a ending together. Of coarse not. What ending did you like better? The TV or movie. Honestley I like both for different reasons. I honestly don't know what the best way to put Rei is because there is two different things. What she says and What Hideakio says. There both about the same tough. I think she may have thought of Gendo, not sure. Possibly happiness thier but for different reason. So lets not consider that point.
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Post by pitch on Oct 20, 2005 22:38:28 GMT -5
Episodes 25 and 26 were crazily poorly funded episodes. The animation was all practically drawn in crayon. XD However, to compensate for that, they had the most overwhelming in depth insight into personalities. They're a little hard to follow - especially when you have to read the subtitles. >.< But I think you can take a little more from it. It's basically a more indepth look at the part of End of Evangelion when Shinji's forced to make the decision of the fate of humanity.
I like the movie better though, because everything plays out as it should have. You can't tell what Gendo's intention was in the series ending. It seems to go to say that killing all the Angels triggered the Human Instrumentality Projects ends. There's no real way to figure everything out. Everyone evolves into that mental world, there is no Eva-goddess Yui, no 18th Angel Humanis, no significance in having Lilith in the chamber below or having Adam in Gendo's palm... nothing makes sense. People tend to forget that though, because it's phun to psychoanalyze what happens.
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Oct 21, 2005 5:55:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I had to think a long time. Do you think a sequal is at all possible? Maybe it symbolizes the power Gendo has, the whole Adam thing. There is some new Manga called NGE: Angelic Days. I hope it comes to borders soon. I don't think it could be as good though. Its an alternate reality series based on Shinji's mental world in 25-26. Every one starts out happy. Shinji and Asuka are childhood friends, and Rei is a new kid. Everything is a perfect world just about. It doesn't look near as interesting or powerful.
Interesting that the angels are the same as the EVA's and yet, they are the same as us.
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