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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Feb 9, 2006 0:33:40 GMT -5
Yes, I've decided I'll work for Capcom(mabe Square Enix first)and once I've gained enough power I'll make MML3(if not alreafy made). However tere is other stuff I may try first.
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Post by Santa Melty on Feb 9, 2006 1:07:14 GMT -5
Ah, well, I intentionally made my explanations very vague for that reason. Whatever we may think, it is only speculation. Anything too specific is liable to be disproved or contradicted. Now, you say that Sera and Yuna were, at the end of the game, worried that the elder System would hurt life on Terra. Since we’re speaking on the terms of my idea, yes, it would damage life on Terra if it was reactivated. The Carbons are the life on Terra, and if the elder System was reactivated, they would be harmed. But the reinitialization itself could only be activated from the Library by a Mother unit and the four keys, and neither the Mother units nor the keys seemed in much of a mood to wipe out a civilization when the game ended. We have to assume, then, that there was something besides the main reinitialization program to worry about as the elder System slowly reactivated. Amazingly, I have an addition to my theory that should explain both this, and the reason that the move to create Elysium was so controversial with the humans. The answer, perhaps, is Eden. The Eden’s, rather. It is true that there must have been something very controversial to spark such a disagreement between the humans. Perhaps the people who opted to build Elysium also planned to force their views upon the people remaining on Terra, and built themselves the Edens to help eradicate the portion of the population that disagreed with them. I have no doubt that such measures would provoke some sort of war. And if we assume this true, it also explains why the Mother units were worried about the System’s reactivation, even if the huge reinitialization were to never take place. The individual Eden units would kick in, and island by island, the Carbons would be cleared out. There is the problem of Juno, who had control of one Eden, yet was focused on the state of the Carbons, not the humans. He therefore must have been created by the Master after he made the Carbons. I suggest that Juno was placed there as one of his first ideas as to how the Carbons should be managed. Juno was given control of a local already-established Eden, and was told to keep tabs on things into the locality. Of course, after the Master changed his mind, he went and sealed Juno, and probably the other bureaucrats managing the carbons, away into stasis. Recall, if you will, that Juno had been resting very peacefully when Trigger found him. My chain of thought is this: that the master shut down the bureaucrats, but was unable to do the same with the Edens, them being part of the original System. It was Sera’s job to be sure that nothing from the elder System was activated until after the Master and the humans were gone, but the Master pulled some strings, and was able to give control of the Edens to the individual bureaucrats, under the condition that the Mother units have ultimate say in case of any unanticipated happenings. Hence, after Juno was wiped from the System files, the computer requested that a Mother unit be notified about it and that she be asked for council. Unfortunately, many years after all of this was decided, diggers began entering the ruins, and in this, they began reactivating the elder System. Don’t forget that the ruins in a district are all operating together. Something you do in one area can open something in another, and so on. Any interference with them could possibly reawaken the bureaucrat. Juno was awakened, and went back to his usual schedule of flattening the island every century or so and then going back to sleep. My point being, it may have been the reactivation of the individual districts that scared the Mother units at the end of the game. So there. *pounds hand dramatically onto debate table* To Griffin:Very interesting, though I now feel that I should make an excuse for myself for not considering the other series. I chose to leave the other game series out of my plotting due to the fact that a) There is a new series coming out as we speak that could easily, and in fact, likely, burn any theory of series continuity to a smoldering heap of logistic ash, and b) I’ve never played any of them myself. Also, it would explain more of what happened BEFORE the System instead of what the System actually was. Which is all well and good, though it would take much more coffee and bento take-out meals on our part to figure it out from the limited evidence Capcom gives us. But like I said, I’ve never actually played any of the games. I’m probably out of my league just commenting on such lines of reasoning. I must stop. To everyone else:Whoa. Whoa. WHOA. How did we get to this now? I was waiting for some interesting theories, like Griffin’s and GesellschaftGal’s. People were apparently circling this topic like vultures, because as soon as the Battle Network series was brought up, we got a page full of posts telling us about how terrible it is. I am normally quite pleased when I see a thread swing off of its hinges so viciously, but it could at least do it a tad more appealingly. AimMan was right; there are other threads for topics like the Battle Network. And Legends 3, for that matter, though I’m biased, so that doesn’t annoy me as much. Why, I have a good mind to go and make a post somewhere elaborating my thoughts, I do.
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Shift
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Post by Shift on Feb 9, 2006 2:37:55 GMT -5
Hmm.. It's a good theory, but it doesn't seem as if your views on "forcing ideas on the other humans on Terra" would work out. Knowing Capcom, they'd try to keep it as simple as possible, though it may not make the best story, it certainly would make a Capcom story. I highly doubt that they'd do something as realistic as to have people force views, then in return, have the others object n' such. Like Pitch said to me a while back, the whole conflict most likely revolves around the already happening Maverick wars. It makes sense, on many levels, and follows the story-line in a strict manner. They're good theories, yes, but as you said, purely speculation. What anyone can say now is only speculation, so this post is in fact virtually pointless. And so is my soul, but that's another topic. Anyway, to restate, I REALLY don't think that they'd do something so... original (although it isn't as creative as I'm making it out to be, I'm really just trying to lessen Keiji Inafune's credit and/or bragging rights that he may or may not possess.)
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Post by Santa Melty on Feb 9, 2006 22:39:53 GMT -5
True, it is all pointless on our part. Of course, it is equally as pointless to be discussing Legends 3, Juno’s gender, character relationships, and most of the stuff that has been discussed here. Capcom hasn’t given us much to discuss in the way of Legends for some time, and how often do we ever find that we have enough information on any given subject to come to a concrete conclusion? And of all of the insubstantial results the pointless discussions here have yielded, it is most likely that none of them will come close to the story of the sequel, should one be made. o.o Bottom line, we just discuss things because they are entertaining, I guess. Supposition must make up a good half of the post here, with nonsense, game discussions, and maybe fan works behind that. That must be it. People here surely don’t get paid to post. They’d better not be getting paid to post. I don’t even get paid to post, and I’ve already gone through two keyboards since joining this place. They don’t even have any good damage insurance. I’ve had to outsource to other forums for that, and their premiums are ludicrous. Anyway, I doubt that there will even be much of an explanation as to the past in the sequel. The problem is that we often look too deeply into something that they had intended to be clean-cut. As far as they are concerned, we probably know everything about the System that we need to know. And I should probably mention, my idea isn’t at all original. I derived it from the plot of a book I finished recently. Life, The Universe, and Everything was the title. Third installment in the Hitchhiker’s series. I recommend it.
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Post by Reaverguy Rises on Feb 9, 2006 23:00:02 GMT -5
Interesting theory. I think there is a chance Capcom will do something that complex. I mean, MML 1&2 were pretty big stories for Capcom games. MML2 really went into depth.
I realy hope that in MML3 Capcom doesn't do something completely different and forgets all about the elder system. I really want to know whats in their that is of such threatning destructive power. I worry it won't be as good as MML2. Now that something as big as Elysium has been gone through I hope they get someone that will make the elder system equally or more amazing. I wonder if they will get a different creator?
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Shift
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Post by Shift on Feb 10, 2006 0:43:03 GMT -5
Umm, actually, MML2 was actually the exact opposite, and was very vague in its presentation. Though they may have originally had a good idea of what they intended the story to be like, they executed pretty poorly, and I'm sure that a lot of people would agree that 2's story lacked a certain something that didn't appeal to the players as much as its predecessor (however, the gameplay was magnificent) I suppose the message I'm trying to convey in all this is that I doubt that Capcom would do something THAT creative. Like what mltmlt22 mentioned of the human's opposing the idea of Elysium and such, it seems as if they'd be allowing the people a little too much of a free-will. Though that may sound strange in some ways, it's true. You'll notice that during a conversation or an arguement between two people in a movie, game, or T.V show, it usually consists of the two participaters bouncing off of one another's responses, and replying to them in an orderly fassion, rather than interupting eachother as they would do in a realistic situation.
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GSG
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Post by GSG on Feb 10, 2006 8:07:59 GMT -5
Yikes.
I said it would make my head blow, and it has![/endtantrum] >_<
In any case, most impressive, mltmlt22! Call this topic pointless if you will, but I really think we're getting somewhere here. I think what would be useful now is that everyone here who has their own theories they believe to be fairly complete to post them, set out in in chronological order in clear bullet point fashion. That way we can tackle point at a time and possibly merge our ideas together. ;D
It might be just me, but I find it quite hard to swallow so much information at face value on such a confusing topic.
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Shift
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Post by Shift on Feb 10, 2006 10:19:56 GMT -5
The topic's not necessarily pointless, per se, I was just pointing out that a few (not all) of mltmlt22's ideas seem a bit to excentric for Capcom's style. In otherwords, it's a tad too sweet for their palette. That's all I meant in my post, not that the topic should be closed down all together. At any rate, I'd might as well throw my two cents in while I'm at it...: After the ZX saga, everything seems as if it will end in a tragic, chaotic finish, as the last remaining humans of the Resistance begin to branch off into outer space in an attempt to not only achieve peace, but eliminate their enemy as well. Though they know that it'd mean sacrificing many, if not all, innocents who aren't already apart of the Resistance, they continue on anyway, for they feel that there's no way around it... There are remains of many sorts of space stations from the previous series, but one that seems to be in tact. (I'm not sure how to play this out, but I REALLYdon't think that humans built Elysium later on in the series, as it's mentioned in I believe MegaMan X5, so maybe they've knowledge on it already.) It is in fact the station otherwise known as Elysium, developed by both Reploids and Humans, centuries ago. As they settle in on Elysium, they try and bring back as many Humans and Resistance members as they can, but unfortunately only retrieve a few... They know that it'd only be a while until the enemy located them, and attempt to attack them, so in desperation, they order Operation Flood (Nothing too creative for this, as I was considering many things on how they'd go about doing this. One being that they already had it set up as a sort of defense mechanism of sorts, or maybe that they simply "melt the polar ice caps", as you'll see fit as a cliche in many movies and games. Either way, they flood Earth) This leaves the remaining humans in a time of sadness and loss... After a while of building their hopes back up, the humans get on their feet and establish a good and working order, as they had on Earth. They refer to it as, the Elder System. It's composed of the Bureaucrats the both led and managed it, the Mother units that were assigned to both Earth and Elysium, the Servitor units, their loyal subjects, the Purifier units, that were meant to protect the system from Abberant units, those who opposed it (they figured that they had might as well establish this now, as they had the Mavericks back on Earth, and weren't prepared for them) and finally, the reaverbots. You'll notice that no one of the system has ever mentioned the reaverbots, so until we find a term that better fits, this is the one to go with. However, both reaverbots and P.A units should all be classified under the same group. However, many humans were too frightened to join this system, and preferred something other than it. Given the technology that had from Elysium, they were able to store their minds inside of another, remote, space station otherwise known as Eden. The Master (and a FEW other humans) stayed loyal to the original plan, and didn't undergo this process, but instead CREATED the humans to fill these jobs and roles for them. The Master didn't receive his title until much later, as he was the Master of the units willing to create the System, but I'd like to believe that yes, he is in fact the person that wears Zero's armor in ZX, as it makes some sense (seeing as how you don't age on Elysium, he could easily fit this role) So he went on, working hard in attempt to "play god", until he eventually succeeded. With the first working Mother Units, Yuna and Sera, he raised them, and gave them false information, to see whether or not they'd be loyal to him. Subsituted the term Earth with Terra, as he saw it better fit, told them their roles, and stressed the fact that they will NEVER defy the System, under ANY circumstances. With that, he went on creating the other units, Gatz to serve Yuna, Geetz assigned to Sera, Juno was to later be in charge of Kattelox, etc. Along with other Purifier and Bureaucrat units. Once they believed that everything was set, the Master ventured off to Earth, and roamed the face of it in search of pieces of land where he could commence the rest of his plan. He created more artificial humans, and made a proper, and more fitting term for them, the Carbons. He created very few of them at first, then went on to raise them for a while, and then placed them on Earth to deal with things independently. After this, he assigned both Bureacrats and Purifiers to each piece of land, to monitor it. They were meant to make sure that the Carbon count stayed at a normal level. However, it wasn't long before the Master and the others realized that they needed a sort of energy supply to provide for the stations that the Purifiers and Bureacrats resided in, so they create the refractors. They put them deep into the ruins of the once lost lands of Terra, and protect them with the Reaverbot units that they thought had no use up until now. Since it was fairly easy to create the reaverbots, as they didn't need much, they created many, in both small and large sizes to guard the refractors. The Master thought that everything was complete, until he remembered his life on Earth before all of this... He fought as Zero (either alongside or against X, either way,) and had one rival of his, that he just couldn't match. MegaMan X. (This could be either Van or Eile) He wanted to remember X... He knew that the System lacked a hero, of sorts. And so, he convinced a human to test out a process that would reset a unit back into its original form a baby (otherwise, reincarnation) With that, the Master created Trigger, to guard as a Purifier unit. He raised him for a while, and tought him everything that he knew as far as combat techniques, and compassion went. He also told him something that he hadn't told ANY other member of the System... That he should have his own judgement. He should do whatever he feels is the just, and moral thing to do, not what the System orders him to. Trigger was raised this way for many years, as Sera observed in confusion.. Why was the Master spending so much time on this unit? He was in a level below that of a Mother unit, so why care so much for him? Of course, everyone else assumed that Trigger was simply another Carbon, as they were, but none of them knew the truth... In a way of God created humans in his image, but Jesus as his son, the Master did the same. See what I'm getting at? I really like this theory, and I thought of d**n near all of it. In fact, other than the names of the units, I came up with it all. Anway, that's my belief. And so, the System continues on, as Trigger grows, and everything goes according to plan, until something chaotic occurs. On an island on Terra (NOT Kattelox, mind you) Trigger sees that the Carbon count has exceeded its "limit", and so it's Purifier unit is ordered to commence the reinitialization process, where all Carbons would be purged, and broken down into their original "components". Trigger feels that this is wrong, challenges him, defeats him, Mother units become upset (mainly Sera, for tampering with it) and challenge Trigger. Trigger becomes badly damaged, and both Trigger and Sera are "reset" by Yuna (as the Master reset the human used to create Trigger) and hidden on Terra. With this, it's now Yuna's responsibility to make sure that everything stays fine, as the only Mother unit left now. And so things continue on, Barrel finds Trigger as a baby, Trigger grows, fights Juno, "awakens" Sera, etc. etc. You know the story.
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Post by Santa Melty on Feb 15, 2006 0:12:33 GMT -5
An interesting idea, though as with FG, I’ll hold on commenting, seeing as how I haven’t played any of the previous games. However, there were a couple of concepts that you brought up that I found very interesting. Firstly, that the Master could have been manipulating everyone involved. Absolutely possible. If that was so, then the only thing we would have to go by regarding him was Trigger’s memory. There is definitely possibility there. Extremely confusing and incomprehensible possibility, it it is there. We must consider it in the future. Secondly, that the carbons could have been created as a means to replace humans who were joining the System. Also another good idea that could work along either the Legends-only or series-storyline trains of thought. There was something else in there, but it escapes my mind at the moment. Anyway, good job. I don’t know what most of it means, but you seem to know what you’re talking about. I’ll leave an analysis to someone else. GesellschaftGal: Yes, that would be a good idea, but since the only couple of seemingly solid theories at the moment seem to be based off of two completely different lines of thought, I don’t think it will do us much good at the moment, unless someone would like to relate my theory to Shift and FG’s somehow, and I don’t think anyone is willing. EDIT: Ah, right, and yours, GesellschaftGal. o.o
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Shift
Sharukurusu
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Post by Shift on Feb 15, 2006 0:35:53 GMT -5
I agree, it seems that there are only a few of us that have formulated theories, but still, we shouldn't just flood this thread with our beliefs, considering that the topic of it is specifically labeled "The Elder System" and most of our ideas revolve around the entire Legends series as a whole. Well, I'll leave it to one of you to create another thread, and I'll follow along afterwards I'm not lazy, I'd just rather not do things because they take too much effort!....... oh... mltmlt22, GesellschaftGal and F.G, you all seem to know a great deal of the game and its story, and I'd like it if we could all somehow combine our ideas into one so, as I previously stated, you make the thread. ;D
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Post by GSG on Mar 7, 2006 8:43:35 GMT -5
WHOOP! WHOOP! RE-PLAY ALERT! o_0; I've been re-playing MML2, and I've just got up to the bit where you have to battle Geetz on top of the Sulpher Bottom. In the cut scene just beforehand, Yuna says: Did anybody notice my subtle emphasizes?So yeah. mltmlt22, it turns out that even if, in the beginning, the DNA data stored in the Library was of the group of humans that originally created the System, it was either substituted with the DNA of the System units, or was never there to start with. It looks like Yuna saying that if the CRP was activated, the carbons on Terra would be replaced with clones of the units that inhabited Elysium all those years ago. Based on this quote from MML1, I'm presuming that the System units lived on Terra for quite a while before the carbons were created. But I don't know. I'm posting this while it's fresh in my memory, but I've already half forgotten most of what's been said in this thread. I feel a bit like I'm running around in circles, but I thought it might be something to bear in mind. So go ahead and bear it some mind.
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Shift
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Post by Shift on Mar 7, 2006 10:02:04 GMT -5
Yeahp GSG, I already knew of that quote made by Yuna. It's obviously referring to the humans of the past, so it somewhat supports the previous theory that I made, in saying that the Carbons would occupy Terra, only for so long, until the System (the Master, mainly) made the decision that the humans should be restored, by simply taking their DNA (thoughts, spirit? W/e) and placing them into the Carbons, thusly pretty much killing any person that the Carbon was before that.
Well I've posted this in another thread, but it seems most appropriate to place it here as well so, here's a roughly translated story, taken from the official handbook of Rockman, "Rockman: Perfect Memories":
This helps clear up many things, regarding everything pre-Legends, so the only thing left to speculate on is the gap created inbetween, and everything afterwards. Hopefully, with the release of the third game, we'll be given a bit more intel on the subject. For now, I suppose we could just keep on theorizing.
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