DreamerBoy
Fritto
I was gonna shoot it straight on but this looks better.
Posts: 68
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Post by DreamerBoy on Feb 14, 2007 13:39:16 GMT -5
One thing I've never fully understood is why the keys to the Main Gate are named what they are. Sleeper and Dreamer seem like they might be related somehow, but I don't think Watcher falls in with that pattern.
If this was explained somewhere in the game, you can skip my speculations and just get to it.
I've thought about it before, and if Sleeper and Dreamer(the inspiration for my screenname) are related somehow it almost fits. Dreamer was in the Uptown SubCity(my location) and Sleeper was Downtown. Watcher was in the ironically non-visible SubCity underneath the warehouse in the Old City. If the two are meant to symbolize something related to the System, which seems more likely than anything, I'm still confused.
I thought for a while that Sleeper might represent Sera(for obvious reasons), Watcher Yuna, and Dreamer the Master. The circumstances those fall under don't really fit, though. I always assumed the WSD Keys were there the entire time, prior to Sera being sealed, which is the one event that brings it all together.
I tried looking at it through a broader scope, more at the big picture. Perhaps the Watcher(s) would be the Mother Units, the Dreamer still the Master, and the Sleeper(s) Bureaucratic Models like Juno? There's no evidence of a WSD Key system on of the other islands you visit, so the idea may be flawed in that regard. Still, I'm curious what others may think. Anyone else have any different ideas?
Again, if it's explained already let me know. I've looked through the games for an explanation, but it's possible I missed something.
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Post by Raijin on Feb 14, 2007 14:52:20 GMT -5
The names of keys meant to open one little set of doors representing aspects of the system or specific characters is a bit too farfetched. If they mean anything at all, it's likely related to Juno alone, since that's what the keys are leading up to. Personally, I doubt they mean anything. They're just three poetic and meaningful sounding words that the writers picked to make the moment seem deeper and more dramatic. Subtle symbolic significance like what you're thinking of isn't really Capcom's style.
Though if you're thinking of some trinity of characters...there's always the "Third Mother" rumor, which itself is the result of a plothole between Legends 1 and 2 and certainly doesn't have any bearing on these keys. Still, thought I'd throw it out there.
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DreamerBoy
Fritto
I was gonna shoot it straight on but this looks better.
Posts: 68
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Post by DreamerBoy on Feb 14, 2007 15:12:57 GMT -5
I've never heard any ideas about a third Mother Unit. What's that about? Err, well, wait, would that be off topic somehow? I dunno PM it.
I don't really know how subtle the reference would be. Juno is a Bureaucratic Model(I can't remember if that was in the original Japanese..), he mentions Mother(Data mentions Mother "two"?). Two of the three are mentioned right there. Juno literally Sleeps under Kattelox, Sera and Yuna were literally designated to Watch over Elysium and Terra. Dreamer's a bit out there. I guess. Things seemed to get more detailed as you got closer to the ending in Legends 1. It just doesn't seem like something they did just to do.
But if there's nothing official - you seem like someone who'd know, so I think you would've said if there was - I guess these are all just empty and pointless speculations.
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Post by Raijin on Feb 14, 2007 15:30:26 GMT -5
While Juno=Sleeper and Mother=Watcher, etc. makes sense in the right context, I just don't see what symbols like that have to do with a key that opens some door. Important as those doors may be in the scope of the game, they're really just doors in the grand scheme of things. I just don't think they're important enough to warrant special meanings attached to them, but what the heck, anything's possible.
The "Third Mother" would be the "Mother Two" Data mentions at the end of the game. It has to do partially with name meanings ("Sera" and "Yuna" are derived from "Cero" and "Una", spanish for "zero" and "one", so the two Mothers we know would be Mother Zero and Mother One, leaving Mother Two unaccounted for), and partly due to a plothole in logic (With Sera sealed and Yuna neutral, there was no danger of either of them scanning Trigger's memories any time soon, making Data's self-stated purpose for existing void). Of course both those accounts can be explained by Capcom not having hammered out the details of Legends 2 when they wrote the ending of Legends 1. Still, I've seen fans speculate about Mother Two, even on those japanese sites I dug the name meanings off of.
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DreamerBoy
Fritto
I was gonna shoot it straight on but this looks better.
Posts: 68
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Post by DreamerBoy on Feb 14, 2007 17:42:15 GMT -5
Is that where their names come from.. that's disappointing. I'd thought it was something different.
Anyway, since there's no official explanation I suppose it doesn't really matter. It stood out to me, though, because they're the only named keys in the game, and yes they open up probably the most important area of ruins on Kattelox. It still seems odd to me that they'd throw in the names for absolutely no reason apart from "it sounded cool," but I wouldn't doubt that it's possible. Capcom never cared about the games anyway.
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Post by Rage on Feb 19, 2007 10:51:54 GMT -5
Of course they don't care about the legends games. It's all about money and Capcom didn't get the money they wanted from the games except legends 1.
It's time to speculate again..YAY!
I always kind of thought they keys were made by Juno or the Mother Units.Why? Mainly to protect Juno while he is sleeping.
Sleeper - A key to represent Juno is Sleeping Dreamer - A key to represent Juno dreaming about the destruction is going to cause on Kattelox. Also when you sleep you dream. Watcher - A key to represent Juno watching over Kattelox to make sure that they don't over populate.
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DreamerBoy
Fritto
I was gonna shoot it straight on but this looks better.
Posts: 68
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Post by DreamerBoy on Feb 19, 2007 11:11:29 GMT -5
It's not really a big deal, I'm rather sick of hearing people complain about how Capcom "Only wants to make money" — they're a business, of course they do. Sometimes I think, of all the different MegaMan fans, Legends fans are the biggest babies there are. (this may sound hypocritical, but when I said "Capcom never cared about the games, anyway," I meant that strictly in terms of plot. Capcom doesn't care about the plot of any series. There are plenty of plotholes to go around, not just when it comes to MegaMan either.)
It would make sense for the keys to represent MegaMan Juno in some way. Dreamer seems a bit off, though. Juno never seemed all that, what's the word I'm looking for here.., sadistic? I think that works. Let me try that again..
Juno isn't quite that maniacal, really he's just doing his job. "OMgWtFDIE!¡!" No, that wasn't Juno(now the Guildmaster in Legends 2, on the other hand... >D )
Otherwise, that's an interesting way to put it. I can honestly say I've never thought of it like that.
p.s. switch the 'e' and the 'o' in your location ;P
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Post by Blues on Mar 3, 2007 22:50:51 GMT -5
I'd just like to add that Kattelox island is the only island with the W/S/D keys and reinitialization process. It was supposed to be used as a backup if the reinitializator (?) on Elysium was damaged or destroyed. I think I read that in the thread with the Rockman "perfect memories" or something like that. (Heh, that means that Mega Man dealed with the backup before he stopped the original...)
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Mar 4, 2007 2:35:29 GMT -5
First, the keys, though as per usual I wander off-track to Sera and Yuna’s names and the Main Gate… It may be that they are a reference to three somewhat famous dykes in Holland. To quote, from Make Bright the Arrows: And an explanation of the above passage: If you liken the keys to the dykes which bear the same name, it does make sense. Remember that the Main Gate had three doors which prevented entrance into the inner part unless one had the keys, and each door fits quite nicely with the dykes, even appearing in the same order. They may also have some bearing on Juno since he does refer to himself as the Master Key, but it could also simply be referring to how he is the activator of the Main Gate. _______ Next, even though it doesn’t have much to do with the thread at hand, the particular name meanings raijin mentioned were new to me, and as such, I figured I’d bring up what I knew on the matter. For me, it was always thusly: Sera: shorthand of Seraphim, a class of angel which bears importance both to Sera’s position and her final form which, although certainly not resembling a seraph, does follow a sort of stereotypically angelic style. Yuna: This one isn’t as clear as the best meaning for Yuna in the Japanese language is simply ‘moon’ or ‘night.’ The latter would correlate to her and Gatz wearing darker colors and provide contrast with Geetz and Sera wearing lighter colors, as well as Sera correlating elementally with light. Although I’d be fairly certain of Sera, you may have a point with Yuna; still I’d chalk the Mother-2 thing up to poor translation. Which reminds me – it’d be sort of interesting to have a guide on the names and other such things which were altered from one version to another. Although it may have been merely cosmetic in most cases, meaning could be lost or confused in translation (For example, the English and then Japanese variants of Barrel’s last name: Casket, a coffin vs. Casquet, a kind of helmet, from the French casque, which fits Barrel nicely given his metallic head), which might shed better light on Sera and Yuna. If you could provide a link to the place in which you found that information on the names, it would be appreciated. It’s not unimaginable that that would be true, as well as the seraphim correlation. I just suspect that there would be some intentional contrast in the meaning of their names rather than them just being numbers as it would match their appearances as well as positions as keeper of Elysium (goddess of the sky) and keeper of Terra (goddess of earth). Still, it may just be that I’m too attached to the contrast idea… Oh, and if you’re wondering where I got the goddess bit from, it’s explained by the man near the statue of the goddesses in Yosyonke, and provides some more contrast for the two. To quote: Yuna, goddess of the sky earth. Brings back memories of Pitch, it does... Edit: Yes, I mixed them up... And didn't even notice till just now... __________________ As for the Main Gate of Kattelox being alone, considering there seems to be some proof otherwise, there may be more Main Gates out there. Although we may not see anymore, that is because they are of no importance beyond MML1; MML2 focuses on the keys. It’s doubtful that the Kattelox Main Gate would serve as a back-up for the Library. Remember that the reinitialization in MML1 only affects the island, not the world as the Library’s does, which is evidenced by the rumors of the island. To quote: Also, the reason for reinitialization differs between MML1 and 2. In MML1, it serves to prevent overpopulation, and in MML2, it serves to literally erase the carbons and replace them with the Ancients, resurrected from the DNA stored in the Library. The traditional idea is that each island has an Eden, Main Gate, Bureaucratic Model, etc. Each Bureaucratic Model regulates the islands individually while the Library activates all the Edens to deploy simultaneously, creating a grid of reinitialization modules, but that requires more than one Main Gate, and both serve their own purposes. As for Perfect Memories, I’d like to see a link to such information first; it occurs to me that someone may have mistranslated that when it originally said something to the effect that Kattelox was the only still-functional Main Gate system, which would make logical sense as it’s the only island that seems to have suffered from reinitialization in recent times. Still, all that considered, I would strongly doubt that Kattelox serves as a backup for the Library, especially since the Library system requires the DNA stored within, and if it were a backup then it would stand to reason that Sera would have headed there first rather than retrieve the keys to the Library as she wouldn’t know Kattelox was no longer functional. Hmm, seems I got a little off track there on that last part, but oh well. I do have to protect the Bureaucratic Model Glyde theory, do I not?
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Post by Raijin on Mar 4, 2007 13:40:58 GMT -5
That explanation for the keys is perfect. I wouldn't assume a coincidence. I guess Capcom really did have a special allusion in mind for those gates. Your theory about the names is good too. I can't verify that the number references are official, I just assumed they were since I hadn't heard any better suggestions. Now I have though. Still, you can't chalk up "Mother Two" to bad translation, since it was on a Japanese site that I saw the whole "Three Mothers" theory. It's one of the sites I referenced in my Enemy Names topic in General Legends Talk. rockmandash.nomaki.jp/data/library.html To quote their entry on Mother Two: Babelfish translation, cleaned up: Okay, I didn't clean it up all that well, but it's clear enough the name "Mother 2" existed in the Japanese version as well, but even that site thinks Capcom just made a plothole between the two games somehow. Well, there's my Enemy Names topic, like I mentioned, but obviously that focuses more on enemies than other characters, though I do have a few other non-enemy related name meanings in there too. Just to be clear, the names Sleeper, Dreamer, Watcher, Sera, and Yuna are all present in the Japanese version. They're written in Katakana, so spelling is in question to an extent, but as long as the pronunciation is close enough there are only a few ways it can be spelled accurately. So what's this about "Casquet" though? I'd figure Casket is accurate enough since it relates to the name "Barrel" (both can be defined as wooden cases). They're both spelled the same in katakana, which is all pronunciation based, so there's have to be pretty solid evidence that one is more official than the other.
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Post by Santa Melty on Mar 4, 2007 19:28:37 GMT -5
... You mean those key names really did have an allusion in them? Shoot. And here I thought everyone was fishing for nothing. On the scale of things, it does seem rather unbelievable that the developers would put such far-flung references like Holland’s walls and Spanish numerals together into one great medley like that, but they do seem to make some sense separately. Besides, there have been stranger references. I’ve got no theories of my own, but just as an objective opinion, I could accept the Holland thing, though Yuna and Sera I wonder about... Between the Seraphim/Night theory and the Spanish numbers, it doesn't seem as though there is any really solid base. I’d have to say that both sound equally probable. Or improbable, depending on how you look at it. Neither are as convincingly similar as Holland and the keys, anyway. ... Holland is in the Netherlands, right? I don’t suppose anyone thinks it possible there might be more references there? As for Barrel’s name, I’d always assumed it was referring to the barrel of a gun rather than the wooden container. It seems to fit the setting better. That, or they could have simply thought it was a nice name (I mean, they named the main character Trigger...), but assuming that a gun barrel was what they were trying to suggest, I’d have to lean more towards the mistranslation of his last name. A gun barrel and a helmet seem like a good combination. Then again, maybe we just don’t give the translators enough credit... Still, I’m on the Casquet side. After all, if the Enemy Names thread is anything to go by, quite a few different languages were used to name everything. Given that, it’s understandable that the translators may have slipped up. Doesn’t make it legitimate or anything, but it does seem like a considerable possibility. And yeah, I think it highly unlikely that the main gate in Legends 1 (or any main gate for that matter, theoretical or otherwise) serves as a backup for the library. Just consider how much trouble those System fellows went through protecting the Ancients’ DNA data, putting all of the files in the heart Elysium and hiding the keys to it on Terra. Placing a backup copy of the data in an easily accessible (relatively speaking) land-based location would rather defeat the purpose. EDIT: Oh, wait, we're talking about the reinitialization thing, not the data? Well, sure, what GustaffGlyde said then. The Kattelox program was only meant to reinitialize Kattelox. The system there served a completely different purpose than the one on Elysium. ... Though granted, I've never read Perfect Memories. I think I may have misunderstood what it is you were getting at, but as for Data, he wasn’t just there to protect Trigger’s memories from being scanned. Trigger was badly damaged by Sera in their battle and needed to have his parameters reset in order to survive. However, the process would delete his memories. Data was created to back up those memories so that they could be restored later. As for Trigger's memories being scanned, even if there is no third mother... maybe it was just as a safeguard in case Sera woke up or Yuna decided she wanted to take sides? Looks like just another vague area to me, but it doesn't seem to change the fact that Data had his place in the whole scheme. Anyway, as to the Third Mother thing, I don't have too much faith in Babblefish, but I agree that it does sound like a plot hole. Seems as though the developers forgot about the Mother 2 line and simply remembered that there were two people involved. As quoted from your quote: It is still pretty scrambled, but that was the gist that I got out of it. I’ve honestly never read Perfect Memories, but I should one of these days. Especially if it is from an official source… A translation was posted somewhere on these boards in the past, but I can’t for the life of me remember where... That one is new to me.
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DreamerBoy
Fritto
I was gonna shoot it straight on but this looks better.
Posts: 68
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Post by DreamerBoy on Mar 4, 2007 20:06:34 GMT -5
>_< (notice me!)I know that's obnoxious, but there were too many people posting at one time.. EDIT: I didn't wanna get a photobucket(because this is a throw-away username), but I did and the images should be working now. GEEZ! imageshack is just terrible.GustaffGlyde, that is absolutely awesome(if it's real ). It fits perfectly, without much need to stretch ideas. Probably couldn't have found that anywhere else but here I bet. So much for empty speculation. · The name meanings I had in mind were the same — I actually think I picked that idea up reading a topic here a while back. I don't recall whether or not "Mother 2" was mentioned in Japanese DASH 1(I've played the game in Japanese). While the Zero/One thing seems to fit too(I find it especially interesting that a Japanese site had that idea) I've always believed the Angel/Moon, Light/Dark idea, and I'd like to throw a little more weight behind it. I'd like first to emphasize the “Night” idea for Yuna. Take a look at these depictions of the two goddesses: Perhaps not the clearest thing in the world, but the contrast idea is shown - depicted through Day and Night. And now, for moon as well, a closer look at her(Night Goddess, assumed Yuna) head: You can see the crescent moon shaped thing, yes? If these images are to be at all significant, it's very much minimal — I'd liken their validity to that of this depiction of Juno's breasts. It especially doesn't work out well, because there are angels in both scene; it does little to provide an argument for Sera's case. The only reason I have the images of the other Goddess up is so that if anyone else sees something I don't, perhaps he could point it out. and to show the idea of contrast between the two. At the moment, that's all I have for the Yuna/Sera thing. I may come up with more later, I'm constantly finding things I've never bothered to notice in the games. Oh, but one more thing. Yeah, that mistake jumped off the page the first time I read it. You ought to be hung ;P · It seems bizarre to think that Kattelox would be any sort of backup for the library. And, no the reinitialization doesn't cover all of Terra, just that one little island. Of course, given Kattelox's incredibly small size, it's not impossible to think that it would be a good place to "hide" a backup. The regular purging of the population would almost seem to suggest it was removing the people before they could figure out what was hidden underneath the island.. but I wouldn't even bother to think into it that far. I think you may've read that wrong, Blues.
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Mar 4, 2007 20:10:40 GMT -5
Ah, and Malt posts before I finsish… Very well, but raijin first. Edit: And Dreamerboy too... I'm getting kinda slow in my old age, I am... Hmm… It may simply be that the Mother 2 referenced in MML1 is meant to literally mean the second mother, rather than being a designation based on name. This would make sense as by the naming conventions you mentioned, Yuna would be the second, and as the Mother unit in charge of Terra, it would stand to reason that she would be the one who oversees the various Main Gates and Bureaucratic functions of the islands (I always figured that Bureaucratic models answered to Yuna, being they’re based on Terra, while Purifier units answered to Sera as she oversaw Elysium and the suppression on the Elder System, part of which may have dealt with the deployment of the Purifiers). Bringing in the whole idea of contrast back in, it would also be hard to see where a third Mother would fit in; Terra is covered, Elysium is covered, so... And, considering each Mother was more or less equal to one another, one would assume that the third Mother would have entered into the whole Trigger debacle, yet there is only evidence for Sera and Yuna. Still, it may be possible that the third dealt with Eden, which would make some sense as in MML1, they were dealing with the Eden system, though as Eden serves as the center for reinitialization, it seems a bit odd that it’d deal with bureaucratic functions. Of course, I’ve also come to suspect it may also double as an in-between relay for sending communications to and from Elysium, or something to that degree (It does seem to be a satellite network, after all…). I suppose it all depends on what exactly Eden is, and we aren’t exactly given too much data on that. In the end, though, it may have been a simple plothole, but I’d assume that if nothing else they simply meant it literally as opposed to referencing the name of a Mother unit (In other words, it meant the second Mother to be created, which, if the names do mean ‘one’ and ‘two,’ would be Yuna). You work on the names was quite impressive, though; I’m surprised I had missed it before… Nonetheless, a good job, and thanks also for listing those sites. As for the Casquet thing, that was just something that randomly came to mind as I had been looking at the names listed in the PSP port of Dash 2, which lists the English names along with the Japanese. Here is a pic of that. Of course, in the N64 port, the name is listed as Casket, but an explanation can be made in that Casquet and Casket are pronounced identically, thusly their katakana would be similar, if not identical. Considering the PSP port is more recent, though, I’d be inclined to trust it a bit more, but that’s not exactly the best of reasons. Still, I looked up casque up in my French dictionary and found that casquette, a related word, essentially means hat, and the word casquet also brings up nothing but hats on a google image search, so in that light it may be a reference to Roll’s prominent and ever-strange hat. It could go either way, though. And, since I mentioned it, here’s the page from the Japaense N64 port – linky. The item manuals were obtained from here. And, umm… what Malt said and stuffs! Actually, I rather like that… It never occurred to me before, though. Heh, Holland is a part of the Netherlands, and is also incorrectly used to refer to the Netherlands in general. As for the Glyde theory, is mainly a silly little thing, but to quote… I'd say more, but I'm afraid I'll get even more behind in postage-ing. Edit: On the Goddess images, even though they aren't working yet, the descriptions you gave were interesting, as well as the images. It does support the contrast idea, though the two ideas may not be mutually exclusive in the end (A name can have more than one meaning, after all). Still, good observation as I hadn’t noticed that before… And to add a bit more info on them from the priest – Pitch probably would kill me for that... For some reason, though, I always want to call Yuna the Goddess of the Sky. Perhaps it's because the Goddess of the Sky sounds better... Ah well, either way.
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Post by Raijin on Mar 4, 2007 20:18:21 GMT -5
On the scale of things, it does seem rather unbelievable that the developers would put such far-flung references like Holland’s walls and Spanish numerals together into one great medley like that, but they do seem to make some sense separately. Besides, there have been stranger references. That's not far-flung at all. With the German, English, Italian, French, Russian, and Greek references in the enemy names, it's hardly a stretch to consider they'd borrow from even more cultures for name references. Videogame writers are often more intellectual than we give them credit for. It may not be deep, meaningful symbolism all the time, but when it comes to names, you can expect them to have an encyclopedic knowledge of obscure references to try and trip up the fans with. I'm still trying to figure out which language the Birdbot mech "Kuerubon" derives from, and then there's nearly all the Reaverbot names. There's already a big mixed bag of languages the Legends names refer to, so it's hard to narrow it down for anything in particular. Well, there are plenty of translation mishaps in Legends, not to mention Megaman in general, but I see no reason why "Casket" should be one of them. I always thought "Barrel" was meant to go along with "Roll", ("Do a Barrel Roll!"), and "Casket" just goes along with "Barrel". Babelfish may not translate Japanese into anything easily readable, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. If you look closely enough at a Babelfish translation you can usually decipher it enough to get use out of it. It often helps to know katakana, which is the only thing about Japanese I can read fluently myself. Edit: And for the last post which I missed while posting... Unfortunately manuals (Japanese or not) are not good references for spelling accuracy. They're made by a different department, which typically don't get all the info from the writing department. Yeah, katakana is all pronunciation based, so without knowing what the original writers were thinking, spelling it in english is pretty much a crapshoot. I suppose we can't discount Casquet, but I don't trust the manual much either.
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Post by Santa Melty on Mar 4, 2007 21:55:09 GMT -5
... Those aren’t bad screenshots. Where were those taken? Anyway, everything surrounding that legend of the two goddesses in the game does seem to support the idea of contrast, though it looks like more of a good/evil motif than anything, especially in those images. The whole thing with darkness being evil and light being good. Which would be interesting, since Yuna is supposedly the one representing night. An empty idea, sure, but it came to mind when I looked at those. Yes, it would be odd if there were a third mother unit around... The Eden system seems as though it can be controlled from either Terra or Elysium, and Eden wasn’t mentioned at all in MML 2, where you’d figure it and any presiding Mother Unit would play an integral role. Still, the idea of a trinity of Mother Units... I still doubt anyone intended for there to be a third in the final plot, but I can see that as something they might have thought of running with. A Heaven/Earth/Hell or Heaven/Hell/Purgatory sort of arrangement. Of course, neither would really fit into the story. Fanciful thinking at best. ... That would explain the lack of humanity, though you’d figure his hair would be a more flamboyant color. I suppose the shape might make up for that though. Ah... Point taken. You’d think they would have chosen something deep if they had the option, but put against some of the other names, I guess it makes sense. Shoot. That never crossed my mind. Somehow I doubt all of these bothersome linguistic issues will make a terrible amount of difference in the end, and after seeing GustaffGlyde's screenshots I’ve lost most of the faith I still had lingering around for their localization team. Any solid information on the matter is probably still in Japanese somewhere. What do I think about the names? I like them. After seeing so many different theories here, that’ll probably be enough for me. A lot of times, sure, but I find that those online translators do a marvelous job of muddling up words with multiple meanings. Often enough, the word you get is incorrect in the context you’re taking it in. It can get especially tricky if you’re dealing with Kanji that has some ten different meanings. Of course, that is just my experience, and I’m known for being exceptionally unlucky.
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