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Post by satoh on Aug 19, 2013 17:15:31 GMT -5
Are you sure we should use 5-Island as a reference material? As long as it doesn't clash with the main media (in this case, the games), I would like to think that these small side stories and extended material that makes a series so much more interesting. As for the better inventor, I would consider Roll being the more innovative one. On the other hand, how much both of them actually invent as opposed to reading from an instruction manual is up to debate. The better mechanic/programmer/designer/developer/manager/etc, however, deserves further expansion. Edit: As for cuteness as a side argument, let's remember that her default appearance and creepy hairstyle isn't even her final form. I'm all for discussion of 5-Island Adventure material. In fact since I've never been able to play it, I may have to make a discussion about it, in hopes I can get a bit more impressions than what little I've found on the net. So yes, I deem this appropriate. As fro Tron's picture there... that's her costume when she invents. It was in MoTB. I based my Tron model off of the in game art for it in fact. I'lll just leave this here. As for Roll's tech being cuter... considering the word 'cute' comes from the word 'acute' meaning small, that is a valid point. And on Loken's last point, I'd love to see something like an 'Iron Chef' of inventing. Complete with narrator and panel of judges.
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Post by satoh on Aug 19, 2013 5:47:50 GMT -5
Alright guys, I love Roll too, but I've already read through a few Tron Vs Roll fanboy flamewars on the archives, we don't need another followup.
This is about inventing skill. I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but Roll and Tron are two entirely separate cases and their 'character worth' cannot be compared. One stat at a time, here it's inventing, kay?
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Post by satoh on Aug 19, 2013 3:01:49 GMT -5
Space Teisel a his computer.
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Post by satoh on Aug 19, 2013 0:03:19 GMT -5
I would point out that Roll didn't actually build the Flutter. Most likely Barrel's owned it since they were infants.
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Post by satoh on Aug 18, 2013 20:00:50 GMT -5
Except none of the vehicles were made by Roll. She only fixed the first three and judging by the dropship, the Flutter wasn't her creation either. Hopefully you don't mind, but I decided to steal borrow your style here, as I liked it.
| Roll Caskett
| Tron Bonne
| Resourcefulness
| S
| A
| Quality
| S
| B
| Creativity
| S
| S
| Cuteness
| S
| F
|
I decided to crank up the letters, since Digger licences don't stop at A. Also gone are the + and - symbols. Taking what I said above and whatever else was said in this thread, I decided to give Roll S for all three of the stats. She made a lasersword out of basically. That's enough to bump both Resourcefulness AND Creativity up. The stuff she makes also never break and whatever she fixes does the job and never breaks until the job is done. For Tron, I took a score away from Quality, because most of her stuff just breaks. She has an army of Servbots, but that's like making many Mega Busters for Mega Man. I only count them as one creation. Though those fuckers are tough as all hell! I also cranked up her Creativity. No matter how we look at it, her creations are quite nice to look at. That's a different kind of creativity from Roll's, but it IS worth mentioning. Also, just to make this a shameless Roll vs. Tron thread, I decided to add an extra stat. One which -in my opinion- is also very important for a mechanic. That stat is incredibly important truner, I'd just like to add my opinion on it too
| Roll Caskett
| Tron Bonne
| Resourcefulness
| S
| A
| Quality
| S
| B
| Creativity
| S
| S
| Cuteness
| S
| F--
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Not a big fan of that hair style / weird clothes / heels Well to be fair I was using Servant Parameters because I know them well... Servants are a thing that is unrelated here so I won't bother explaining... HF probably knows what I mean though. Anyway, I wasn't rating the characters AS CHARACTERS, otherwise I'd probably rate Roll as an A+ rank with Tron as something like a D++... (again these ranks are sort of hard to explain but it's not really important) I'm not a big Tron fan myself, but she has her moments. I do like Roll pretty much in general. Though if personal interpretations and ideals are used Roll ranks in the EX range, well above any numeric classification... but that's because my mind has built up Roll in a way that does not directly reflect the actual written character... Head-canon, like the scent of fresh lemon, you see. But I still think that Tron is more resourceful.... in the realistic story that was actually told sense. I don't LIKE IT, but that's my objective view. Obviously it would be pointless to ask "who is a better character in general" as that's been done plenty, and I've read some of the smoldering aftermath and I really don't want to walk away from this thread picking embers out of my hair. I will say this, Tron's inventing outfit is pretty cute.... Oddly enough she styles her hair spiky when she invents... I wonder if tongari is required for building things...tongari is a slang term in Japan for people who spike their hair, lit. "Pointed"
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Post by satoh on Aug 18, 2013 15:12:23 GMT -5
So who is better, Tron, or Roll?
The way I see it is a bit more complicated than just raw stats so to speak...
If I had to rank them, I'd say that Tron has an Inventing rank of A, and Roll has an Inventing rank of B ...
But more complicated than that. Using the same parlance, Tron has a trait, something like... Budget Builder. Because of this trait, she uses only economical parts, and reuses many of those parts when things break, this saves a lot of money, but the result is that her inventions are one rank less than her overall ability, meaning her skill is A, but her inventions are B ranked.
Now you say, that makes them even... but we know they're not even because never once has Trigger's equipment been broken by... anything.
So then, Roll has a trait as well... Spare No Expense, which allows her to use the highest quality parts, sacrificing funds for quality, adding one rank to her resulting inventions... so her skill is rank B, but she invents A ranked items.
Meaning Tron is actually better at inventing things, but Roll's inventions themselves are better.
That's how I see it, how do you all see it?
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Post by satoh on Aug 18, 2013 2:36:39 GMT -5
I always saw them as a bunch of rich kids hit by very difficult circumstances, who had to figure out how to survive in the world the hard way and resorted to pirating. We know for a fact that their mother is dead (a supplementary text up on TRRL said the dad died, too, though it was never actually stated in-game.) The only one of them who really has any aptitude for the business is Tron, mostly just because of her mechanical inclination. If she weren't a mechanical genius, they'd all be pretty screwed. It's pretty evident in the way Teisel fashions his room that they're accustomed to a more well-off lifestyle. Seeing as he's the oldest (and spent the most time living whatever life they led before becoming pirates), he'd have the hardest time adjusting. For someone who's considered intelligent in the manual, he's pretty careless about how he spends his money and where he gets it from. It'd make sense that he was just really used to having a ton of disposable income. Once they got the prismatic Kattelox refractor, they immediately used it to try and quit pirating, which supports the theory that they're pirating moreso out of personal necessity than anything. So ultimately, I'd say they're unknown. /\ What Dashe said! Rich kids turned pirate. Although they have shone themselves to be very good at it. In misadventures Tron does some remarkable stuff, and from the MML1 intro we know that they have had at least 1 'flawless operation'. Not to mention the Kattelox police had no chance against them, as well as the people of Sal Kada. I would like to know the origins of the Bonnes. We kind of have a little fan theory that the Bonnes' parents were the lawless type as well. I'd like to think that Teisel blew all of their inheritance soon after their parents deaths. Maybe he tried taking up the family business and failed, resulting in them having to become pirates. Maybe the pirating was the family business. Imagining them having to resort to pirating to survive is a bit dark and a little heartbreaking. It's a story I'd like to see told. Very intriguing thoughts, both of you. I had always sort of considered them former 'upper class' citizens from somewhere, but I never really thought hard about it. I think if I ever get actively into my collection of MML side stories again, I will have to write one up about this. Immediately it seems like their family was probably mercantile to begin with. That would explain a number of things, for one, why Teisel decided opening a store was a good idea. It would explain why they had money, how they could afford their Gesselshaft in the first place, and actually also why Teisel is so bad at business. Being the first son of a wealthy merchant, he was likely over-pampered and never paid attention to the principles of business. Being somewhat entitled, he just assumed the business would be a success. Tron being much younger didn't get much of this treatment, and was most likely forced to grow up under much harsher circumstances, considering the loss of one or both parents, making her a more economical and practical person... though still retaining a bit of haughtiness as her heritage. The real question though, is how long have they been pirates? If Bon is, as I've heard claimed, a baby in a sort of ride armor, then it must not have been long, because I can't see that being a normal thing for a merchant family to do with their kids... it is most likely something Teisel and Tron did when turning to piracy... But this means we have to look at Bon's age... he's clearly a toddler at best by his wordless speech and vocal pitch... but that only lasts so long... Most children speak a few words even without active teaching by 4 years of age. (this is assuming carbons aren't severely mentally deficient or something.) So, there's three possibilities Bon brings up... 1, the Bonne's have only been pirates for about 2-3 years... 2, Bon is adopted... or 3, Bon is actually a robot body with some small amount of 'leftovers' of a child that suffered some horrible near-fatal event, and has thus been unable to grow out of his infancy. Or a 4th... technically... Bon might just as well be an AI. This is what I'd always assumed in my youth, but it seems other people have come up with slightly less random explanations than "Oh, Tron built a robot baby." Honestly I still prefer to see Bon as a robot... Perhaps their parents built him, and Tron advanced the technology when she built her kobun.... but I must admit, a baby COULD fit in that massive head, and I think there's evidence that supports it written somewhere I don't remember where... so the robot theory seems out. But that brings us back to the problem... The Bonnes seem to act like they've been pirates a while, but I don't think they can have. It;s been a while since I played it, but what if MoTB was one of their earliest heists? It takes place before MML doesn't it?
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Post by satoh on Aug 17, 2013 21:08:06 GMT -5
Ah, but the question is, how well known are they? Are they infamous, or unknown?
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Post by satoh on Aug 17, 2013 20:27:20 GMT -5
So here's the deal... it seems to me that a lot of fans might see the Bonne's a bit differently from me...I don't mean like and dislike, but rather who they actually ARE.
Personally I've always seen the Bonnes as impressive looking, but otherwise total nobodies. No characters ever seem to recognize them except the few other pirates we see in the series, and I don't think Bola and Klaymoor actually know who they are at all.
In fact, even the protagonists seem to be oblivious to their presence until they out themselves in MML2. Only Trigger and Roll seem to know who they are at all.
However it seems to me that a lot of fans see the Bonnes as more like AAA rockstars of the pirating world, people who are known and feared throughout.
...but there's actually a third possibility. Perhaps the world consensus on piracy in the Halcyon era is much more cavalier in general... it could be that Pirates are treated as ordinary folk, until they actually take something and attack. It could be that the world understands that piracy is just the only resort sometimes, and that pirates are just people who can't make a living otherwise...
It's hard to say really, considering people in the era have no qualms about replacing body parts with machinery simply because its better suited to their line of work (Prosthetics, gun-arms, camera eyes, armor that grafts onto the skin, as described by Inafune in an interview, which I believe is available at the Reploid Research Lavatory)
So how do you see the Bonnes, and why?
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Post by satoh on Aug 17, 2013 18:51:54 GMT -5
I figured if I were you I'd probably want an affirmation that it was the other guy in the equation who was trolling. I mean, there is always that chance that he's some twelve-year-old kid who's never heard of the series, too. The Serious Business PartI've got a concept for the Buscan sub-gate. The mining crew tried to excavate it manually a la Teisel and the Marlwolf, leaving Tuttle no means of actually entering it from the gate itself. It's surrounded by scaffolding and abandoned construction equipment and various "Do Not Enter" signs. The whole site should look incredibly hazardous. There's a second means of entry nearby, like a ventilation shaft for the ruins that can be opened using a MacGuffin, or perhaps Tuttle ends up walking in on the miners accidentally making a back entrance themselves. I'm going to come back to this later, refine it, and add some pictures. I like it, it sort of compliments my idea of a service tunnel manhole. Also there should totally be a junk shop named MacGuffin's owned by Mr. MacGuffin. He sells all the one time use junk! But enough metagaming...
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Post by satoh on Aug 17, 2013 12:17:22 GMT -5
I don't think Zaiy meant you, Satoh. I'm guessing you ignored my advice to unread those comments. =p But looking back on it it does seem extremely trollish since thus far the only thing that account has done is post that one list of ridiculous stuff. I didn't really read them too carefully to begin with. I wonder actually why anyone would want to troll us of all people. We're pretty niche and its not like we fill the internet with angst melodrama or the same 7 comments about how detergent and generic ninja story are the best shows in the world or something. ..and TLT is even less prominent a target, no offense of course. In the true spirit of invention however, I have come up with some plausible ideas for reaverbots and the like based on those wild comments. I should probably write them down but I'm far too tired. I do have another idea for an entrance... It would look sort of inconspicuous, like a shrine to something, an old one no one pays attention to anymore... but instead of being a shrine, its just a similarly shaped door , that acts as the hatch to the ladder that leads into the ruins. I don't know much about the islands, but if there's one that's traditional asian themed, it would go there. I guess for subgates I like the idea that the entrances would be unobtrusive and likely forgotten or unnoticed. To give that feeling of being truly out of the way. I also like the concept of them being hidden in plain sight, much like the one in the "gallery."(even though I hated the actual layout and theme of that ruin... ice levels and water levels man... what's the deal, why are they always so annoying) Hmm.. a ruin that looks like an ice dungeon from the outside.. but leads instead, deep underground into a geothermal plant, possibly similar in function to the 5 island adventure one... or not... anyway I'm just throwing ideas out because they popped into my head, I'll stop derailing this train now. *gently lowers wheels back onto iron*
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Post by satoh on Aug 16, 2013 23:37:44 GMT -5
Well... I hope I haven't been seen as trolling, if that was the implication. I wasn't really trying to. I was simply stating that Tuttle isn't Trigger. Last time I looked I read that the game would be a bit less 'omg powerful enemies everywhere' due to Tuttle's limitations.
I mean maybe that's changed I don't know. Maybe Tuttle is a late blooming superhero in the current plan... but that wasn't what I understood it to be. I'm really not trying to cause problems or anything.
If perhaps you were referring to the original poster, then ignore everything I just said... in fact, unread it.
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Post by satoh on Aug 15, 2013 23:38:26 GMT -5
Idea 3: the sub-gate is a black hole and sucks you in, you escape when a white hole blast you out elsewhere. Idea 4: the sub-gate is a fast on fire robot of yourself, you defeat it once, then it gets back up and grows 5 times your size and is now a fast lightning robot of yourself. Idea 7: the sub-Gate is a item you had the very start of the game and at the end of the game becomes giants samurai robot that you fight to see if you are ready to enter his gate. Idea: 8 the Sub-Gate shows up at a time and place once a day, its a old rusty building and the grandfather clock ask you a question, get it wrong, the building and all of it does not show up for other day. get it right opens a book case, the book case is the sub-gate. Idea 10: the Sub-Gate is your nemesis from the very start of the game. I feel that you don't realize that Sub-Gates are only structures, not living things. Lets also remember that...Tuttle.... isn't.... exactly.... purifier first class... I don't think his cane would stand up to this kind of thing.
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Post by satoh on Aug 15, 2013 16:43:58 GMT -5
I think I just realized something...
In a business, at least 25% of your customers MUST be -new- customers, in order for your venture to be a worthwhile profitable action... I think when Capcom reps said there wasn't enough interest, they meant the game hadn't brought in any customers that weren't already fans of the series.
So it did fail to get the support they wanted, because it was all old business... "regular customers" can't keep a business afloat, regardless of how many you think you have. (This has been proven by several failed businesses that catered specifically to their repeat customers, and never tried to get any new ones, the 25% rule is documented if you care to know more)
So the only thing that could have saved MML3 was more people... but specifically people who didn't know what the Eff MML was.
I'm not saying I agree with their decision, I'm just saying that there are legitimate business related numbers that could be the reason they made it.
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Post by satoh on Aug 15, 2013 4:30:12 GMT -5
And I like to think that my avatar makes every one of my posts sound like an unnaturally large, heavily-breathing grizzled man. Either that or just excited about all of the things. I certainly see it that way. Anyway I'm on Win 7... And yes, it is good that you are still on XP. even as long as I've been using 7, I still wish it was XP.
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