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Post by aarond on Jan 27, 2005 0:12:38 GMT -5
I think it's "church" when you're talking about just going to church, or the church building, and you capitalize Church when you're talking about the Catholic Church (or other denomination) in specific. Usually, Protestants won't do that, though.
Going to church is totally subjective. If you don't really want to go, then you probably shouldn't, because you're not really getting anything out of it, anyway. Stay away on Easter and Christmas, too, because that way, it will be less crowded. This by no means invalidates the possibility of salvation.
Also, Whoopi Goldberg played god in that most recent Muppet Christmas movie on NBC the past few years. It totally rocked, by the way.
Even more off-topic...
"I'm sorry, this shirt is for Kermit the GORF! I'm Kermit the FROG!"
"No, this is for Kermit the FORG!"
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 27, 2005 4:08:56 GMT -5
First off, I just woke up from a lovely nap so some of this may be a little weird. I would go get coffee, but I need to go back to sleep… well, here goes… Paragraph 3: Bah, I don’t think anyone will hold your opinions and beliefs against you unless they’re just… weird or something. Now, when I referenced the scandals in the Catholic Church, I was referring more to Medieval scandals where priests let the power go to their heads. Church isn’t bad and establishments serve a good purpose, all I’m saying is that both evolution and Christianity can’t be proven, so therefore instead of teaching kids one or the other you could teach both. If you just teach Christianity then it isn’t fair to those who don’t want to because they are of a differing religion, but the same holds true for teaching evolution. It was the solo teaching of Christianity that got it kicked out of school in the first place and replaced with a crazy theory that can’t be proven anymore than the religion it replaced, but for some reason people like it. Maybe it’s because by believing in evolution it allows them to avoid and escape from the moral laws set down by a religion. Paragraph 6: … *sigh* why does everyone think I’m a liberal. I don’t think we should burn everything that has the word “God” on it (and neither do a good number of liberals). All I’m saying is that regarding the separation of church and state, however fictional it may be, that we compromise by teaching about the major religions or something. I went to a private school that just happened to be Christian too, and they did just that. They basically presented us with the theory of evolution and several major religions and we studied them, and decided on our own. You actually weren’t forced to be a Christian to be able to go there and people didn’t look down on you if you weren’t. Now, as I was saying, I’m not liberal, I just consider myself in the middle with a leaning towards the right. Also, as for ADP… I try not to associate myself with those who can’t spell and don’t know what the word “ironic” means. How this all got started was that BM 1-3 and FG got to talking about separation of church and state in a thread debating evolution and creation. I chimed in and gave my point of view and BM 1-3 got in a fight with UFO and never came back, so he came to MMLS and decided to try and talk about the issue here, sans ADP, UFO, and his other bestest pals over at MLU. I’m not saying that Liberals don’t try to shove their ideology down our throats just as much as anyone else (though technically it was optional to go see the movie, but seeing as I’d rather see Moore being slowly roasted over an open fire with a large can of gasoline hanging by a thing string just above him I could care less…). Anyone with an ideology will try to force it on others; it’s almost a part of life these days. All I’m saying is that instead of going around and letting only evolution be taught, we reach an agreement and implement a course on religion as well which would also lessen the anti-Christian sentiment some people these days have. Paragraph 7: The thing is, you see, that when someone is forced to do something it becomes a chore. When I was forced to go to church, I really didn’t like it, but now my parents have made it optional and I decide to go and now it’s actually kind of fun (plus the church we go to is great. They learned of a little thing called “humor” and how to make a lesson relevant. My old church was where you just sat in a chair for two hours and starred at the ceiling hoping to not die of boredom… but I’m getting way off track here). When you force kids to go to church, it makes some of them get into an anti-Christian mindset (though today’s media doesn’t help much). Also, as aarond pointed out, if you don’t want to go you won’t get anything out of it. If going to church becomes a chore for someone, then when they reach adulthood and are able to have their own choice on the matter, they’ll most likely choose not to go to church. My middle sister fell prey to this. My parents forced her to go and as soon as she got a car she rarely ever went to church again. She still appears to be a Christian, but she has developed a dislike for church due to it becoming like a chore. It’s like when I’m forced to learn and study something, it’s a chore and I hate it, but when I’m on my own and come across something interesting, I’ll research it and study it and think of it as fun. You should be forced to go for a little while, maybe a couple of weeks to show you what the place is like, and then given the choice of whether to go or not. Random Comments:[/u] 1. Yup, they meet most of the qualifications. So, why doesn’t their beloved separation of church and state apply to them? 2. Religion gives life a meaning, no arguments there. Some people don’t like them because they see them as crazy, they’re embarrassed about having a religion, or they don’t like that religion gives you a code of morals to follow. 3. Yup. They’ve had their issues with corruption, but corruption has to do with the person and not the religion. The main bad thing that comes to mind would be the Spanish inquisitions*, or just inquisitions in general, but those are long gone so no need to worry. 4. <_< >_> Ummm… I think most of my stuff is kind of right… I guess I was a bit too general but still.... 5. My opinion isn’t absolute. That’s why I call it an opinion. Everyone has one and a lot of them differ. 6. … It’s the Pharaoh’s longest post ever? Break Dancing Party:-*! *… Yeah… the real Spanish inquisition was a bit harsher. They also didn’t interrogate people with cushions and comfy chairs. Still, I’m bored and had nothing better to put down here.
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Post by PharaohManXe54 on Jan 27, 2005 16:58:36 GMT -5
Whoops! I thought that BM1-3 said you were a liberal, but I guess you're not. Those random comments were applied to EVERYONE not just you. You were saying stuff that was right and stuff that might have been wrong (sorry, I read it pretty late [for me] last night) and same with everyone else. Like the Japan thing: This may be a past event, but the Japanese through Catholic Missionaries into Mt. Fuji........ I guess you see my point. The most Christian Asian country is South Korea, BTW.
Uhhh..... as for people being forced to go to church, I think that the parents should do it, but gently. True, some people who are forced to go to church turn out Anti-Christian, but I know a lot of kids who wouldn't be half as nice as they are today if they didn't go to church. I think that people who say that "Church is so boring" don't really have an open mind and participating (Gustaff Glyde, you get a pass. 2 hours!?!?!?! My Sunday church service is on 45 minutes!). So it's not really as seeing it as a chore (I kinda see it as a chore cause you have to do your chores and I believe you have to go to Mass [Catholic term for a church service, FYI]), but just having an open mind. Come on, it's just an hour (mostly) a week! I hate these kids who are in my Confirmation class who are like "Getting Confirmed is so gay." BE OPEN!!!!!!!!!
But anyways, yeah, I mostly agree with you AaronD and partly agree with you GustaffGlyde.
As for teaching, well, I go to a ALL GUYS Catholic college prepratory school and I take A.P. Biology. We are forced to learn the theory of evolution and are pretty much expected to take it for truth IN THAT CLASS. The key is to have your own mind (well, it's harder in grade school, but in high school, anyways) and make your own decisions. Don't hate, EDUCATE!!!!
*DONE*
P.S.: UFO ALSO SUCKS!!!!! Go crash at Roswell or something.....
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Post by megadude v 2.0 on Jan 27, 2005 17:15:36 GMT -5
i go to church because i love it. when i was little and belonged to another curch, i hated it. it was an old person, hym singing, bore till you snore church and god was non exsistant in that place. there were no new people coming and it wasn't growing.
side note:
I believe that the curch should rule in all aspects of life, including school. if you read the bible, it clearly states that we have diminion of the whole earth, and we just have to claim it.
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Post by aarond on Jan 27, 2005 21:24:34 GMT -5
You know what's an awesome movie about church, the "North Avenue Irregulars," from the late 70's. I COMMAND you to go find some obscure video store which has a copy of that movie and watch it, now!
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 30, 2005 13:41:40 GMT -5
Well, it just occurred to me that I never really explained why I say that both evolution and Christianity should be taught. It isn’t because of political correctness, it’s part of a plan. Basically, since evolution can’t be proven, it shouldn’t be taught in schools as fact and thusly imposed on the youths. Of course, we can’t replace evolution with creation because that can’t be proven either and we’d still be forcing people to believe in something that requires faith. Therefore, we’d reach a compromise and allow both to be taught, and since both are being taught and the choice of which idea to put their faith in is theirs, it would no longer be imposing. Of course, some people would still protest because they so adamantly hate religion (say hello to that oh so loved Michael Newdow… I know he’s one of BM 1-3’s biggest heroes, right up there with Michael Moore… sarcasm). I’m not really sure why as most religions, especially Christianity, provide life with meaning, give you a sort of moral compass to guide you, and gives you hope for the future (not to mention one study said that people who strongly follow a religion tend to live longer than those who don’t. I guess when there is more to your life than eating, sleeping, and working with the occasional night on the town you tend to live longer). Why they’d want to deny themselves and their kids this I don’t really know… As for the church thing… yeah, with a two hour service in a boring church sitting in a metal folding chair listening to a guy who speaks in a monotone voice… I am so glad I don’t go there anymore… My current church does its best to keep the service no longer than one hour, the pastor is actually funny and knows how to keep you interested, and the chairs are comfortable (not to mention they have couches in the back). I love my current church. The meaning of all this is that you just need to go around and find the right church for you. Each one is different and tends to a different crowd, so just because one church is boring doesn’t mean they all are. I guess if you gently forced them, it wouldn’t be so bad, but dragging little Tommy to church by the jugular won’t work, and threatening to punish him isn’t any better. I still think having a choice is best, but if they never go when their kids, chances are they never will, so a few forced visits wouldn’t hurt. As for the Japan thing… yeah, I got the wrong idea there… I’m not to sure why either. What I was saying was it wasn’t a heaven on earth. I just don’t like how some fans of a particular genre of which I myself am fond of tend to think it’s some kind of Elysium land where all is perfect and candy and skittles rains from the sky. At least, they’re always saying that they’ll move there when they grow up and that it’s so much better than the U.S. and so on. It just annoys me, but it is westernized and religions are tolerated and accepted there so I was missing the point a little… oh well… crazy chants…
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Post by Fire Griffin on Jan 30, 2005 18:06:58 GMT -5
Meh. I'll finally say something about that first paragraph. I'm really too lazy and I believe I should say something now or risk never getting around to replying to this:
(Government homework: Get your butt over here, Smelly.)
I believe I was saying your religion was generally more tolerant than the Muslim faith. Yeah, there are tolerant Muslims just as there are tolerant vegans and everything else but the Muslims in question are those in the Middle East. I'd rather deal with evangelical Christians than fanatical Middle Eastern Muslims.
In other words, I was saying something positive about the Christian faith. I wonder why you addressed that but okay, clarification for you.
The other part I am not going to mess with because while that is debatable, I do not have enough research up my sleeves to say anything contributing nor do I really have anything amazing to say and share. I won't say this "moving the world" business has always been positive, however. The Crusades and Salem witch trials (and the trials elsewhere such as Europe during the time) I would not consider very good marks on Christian history.
I hope you also answer my sect question on the first page when you come back, BM. I'm still curious.
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Post by aarond on Jan 30, 2005 20:17:37 GMT -5
Actually, the Theory of Evolution is a fact. The idea that organisms change and adapt to their surroundings over time has been proven.
Now, the idea that man came from monkeys, or that every single living thing on the planet is descended from a fish that decided to grow legs, no, those wacky ideas have not been solidly proven.
And you'd better believe the same things I do, or I'll have to kill you.
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 30, 2005 20:55:51 GMT -5
Yes, and that’s why scientist call it a theory… you’re mixing up adaptation and evolution. Adaptation is a key part of evolution, but in now way proves evolution.
Your either referring to adaptation, or taking evolution literally (a process of change in a certain direction). If evolution were fact, it would not be a theory.
When I say evolution, I refer to the theory in its entirety from the big bang, abiogenesis, man from monkeys, and so on. Adaptation isn’t evolution, it’s is only a part of evolution, but it's also a part of life in general. Adaptation is fact, the rest isn’t. A species evolving from one to another is theoretically possible, but has never been proven or observed.
In other words, John can go to Germany and adapt to the German ways, but he can’t evolve into a German Shepard. That’s all…
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Post by feldinaut on Jan 30, 2005 21:32:53 GMT -5
What aarond is talking about is something I have heard called "microevolution." Microevolution deals with evolution within a species, the explanation, for example, to how we have so many different breeds of dogs. Microevolution is proven. Dogs HAVE changed and new breeds have popped up during even this last century due to humans controlling which dog breeds with which. This type of evolution is obviously not some kind of spontaneous accident, as in the theory of macroevolution, evolution on an inter-species scale, which is all the stuff about random accidents and apes becoming humans. I'm pretty sure GustaffGlyde's "adaptation" and aarond's "microevolution" are the same thing by different names. Correct?
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 30, 2005 22:05:04 GMT -5
Ah, hmmm, perhaps so. Microevolution is indeed proven, but when aarond said the “theory of evolution” I suspected he meant macroevolution and I figured he was mixing up adaptation with evolution.
What macroevolution refers to is major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. This is the man from apes kind of evolution and is what the theory of evolution relies on.
Microevolution, on the other hand, refers to varieties within a given type. In other words, change happens within a group, but the descendant is clearly of the same type as the ancestor. This might better be called variation, or adaptation, but the changes are horizontal in effect, not vertical. These changes might be accomplished by natural selection, in which a trait within the present variety is selected as the best for a given set of conditions, or accomplished by artificial selection, such as when dog breeders produce a new breed of dog as Feldinaut mentioned.
Most evolutionists assume since the proven microevolution is possible, macroevolution must also be possible.
I guess aarond meant microevolution, though why he called it the theory of evolution is beyond me, especially since he said macroevolution was untrue… oh well, a little confusion I guess. I’ve gotten worse things mixed up… oh the nightmares…
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Shelldragon
Gorubeshu
Sparkling Something...
All's fair in love, war and piracy.
Posts: 222
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Post by Shelldragon on Jan 31, 2005 4:36:23 GMT -5
Read or don't, that's your choice:
Hmmm what an interesting topic, I'll put my two cents in whether any of you care or not, I don't care. Then I'll say no more because I don't care to argue with those who refuse to accept other people and their ways of life.
1. there are far too many beliefs in the world to think yours is the only one that is good and right and that all others are morons.
2. Have any of you actually met in person a Middle Eastern Muslim? You may think they are a certain way because they are portrayed a certain way TO you but they are not what you think and even if they were, leave them alone. I could pick out every little problem with any of your cultures because everyone's has big and little problems. I could all say you are too individualist and apathetic and greedy for example. I'm sick of people assuming the worst of those poor people being killed everyday. I don't agree to live the way they do but I respect them because that is their way of life. I'm not talking about extremists who kill in the name of religion when they truly have been banished from their religion, I'm talking about everyday ordinary Muslim people. In Islam just like Christianity, when you kill you are the lowest of the low and you are no longer a member of your group the way you were before. But nobody knows this because they don't get the chance to really know someone of the faith. They are peaceful and loving but no one gets a chance to know that. People only see the worst of them because they are in a state where they are under attack. If you were in a military zone with your love ones being murdered in front of you, you would be that way too. You would suffer psychological damage and be likely to attack back.
3. I'm intolerant of intolerance. Maybe you say I shouldn't read this stuff if it bugs me so much but I cannot turn away and let the hate continue. Love, do not hate. Embrace, do not kill. Use diplomacy through all matters, it is never worn out.
Politics isn't even an issue here, I am only concerned about people who assume the worst when it simply isn't true. I don't care what you are or what group you label yourself with, all I care about is that you don't hate and you understand others. Agreeing or disagreeing isnt the issue, respect is. Being so pessmistic is unhealthy and unwise. I don't really want people to respond to this, it's just a simple message for myself to get out there if you want to read it or not, go ahead, as for me, I won't be responding any further, I have no more to say.
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Post by fAB on Jan 31, 2005 13:16:40 GMT -5
Before I state my opinion, let me just get the modly stuff out of the way: CHANGE THE NAME OF THIS TOPIC!!! I came into this topic hoping to roast MMLU (oops, did I say that out loud?) and was GREATLY surprised to find this. Just change it, k? LOL! *cough* Yes indeed, I certainly did not find what I expected to here. Since BM1-3 hasn't shown up since Pharaoh requested the name change, I have altered it myself. The problem with MLU has become Religious Discussion from MLU, Continued... Any objections, feel free to say so. In other news, I've read the whole topic, but don't really feel like getting in on it, so you can just pretend I wasn't here.
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Post by megadude v 2.0 on Jan 31, 2005 20:26:19 GMT -5
1 nobody is perfect, except through god.
2 as for the crusades and salem trials, those were misguided acts. the crusades were done for the wrong reasons and the witch trials were products of mistrust and lies.
3 if god is with a person, he/she will be able to discern between good and evil spirts.
4 not all muslims and islams are bad, but they won't be saved. "for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and with your mouth that you confess and are saved." or something like that. i might be paraphrasing.
in the bible it say something along the lines of that even the demons believe that god exsists.
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Post by Bureaucratic Model 1-3 on Jan 31, 2005 20:35:34 GMT -5
Okay, I fixed it, sorry I was gone so long, but this might be the start of future trends. In my defense it was going to be a bunch of incoherent rants on MLU, but it just didn't turn out that way.
Now first of all regarding MLU and UFO, I will say here that I have not unceremoniously left that site; I just haven't been around the Forums. But when it came to that thread if really want to make me angry then make it look like I've been keeping you under my foot when I haven't. If you want to go down like a Martyr then I had better have you're blood on my hands and I am not F ing joking. I take great pride in being a screamer, like Davy Crockett, and if you want to bow out then darn, but Hari Kari is for sissies... and...
...
Forget it...
Evolution. I believe that creatures evolve, simply because that's the way life works, there are humans that are born with Six fingers or a little piggy tail, and they have to be 'adjusted', even though if I had a kid then they wouldn't, so I think that god allows life to happen, but as for ex-apus, eh... not likely, or, at least, not for me…
When it comes to Japan, I see where you're coming from, like how people in China watch Friends and think that life in the states is really like that. You might consider, additionally, that if you're life doesn't suck then you can't really see how theirs might. A lot of people are looking for a new start, for one reason or another.
Fire 'is confusing, but not really' Griffin, What question, you didn't post on the first page? Are you talking about over at MLU? In any case rewrite your question and you'll get my answer, even though it might take a week or two. About that comment, preferring Evangelicals to Muslims, I suppose there are things to be said. Evangelicals can really suck but the chances of me having a gun pointed at my head are non-existent. Whereas if I have certain things on me I'd prefer a Muslim on the off chance that he'd so much as pull a gun out while my dander was up because very quickly they'd be learning what it's like when somebody else said 'convert or die,' and meant it.
You guys don't put much faith in religion... do you? If we want to talk time then mine is three hours, but it's two classes and a sacrament meeting, so I guess it's not the same. I think that when it comes to Catholicism you have to take it for what its worth, because the stations of the cross are not something that I am entirely familiar with, even though I recall hearing about it. I am reading a history of Witchcraft and Demonology by Matthew Summers, a note worthy Catholic, and it is very interesting to note how ceremony seems necessary for various rites. All the same I'm not in the mood, maybe next post or something.
Guess that's that for now, I should get posting again, or stop altogether, don't you think?
EDIT: Perfect timing Megadude. Demon's don't 'publicly' believe in God, but their existence proves his. The problem is that most interaction with Demons the people don't care, or the people think that its a relative, as is with Spiritualism.
You believe in the Nicean Creed do you? I don't. The Holy Ghost is the power of discernment, he can be with you, but God is a physical being, as least as far as I can attest to. However you're very right in the whole going to church doesn't mean you'll be saved, but all roads DON'T lead to Rome, so keep that in mind.
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