On the topic of zenny and trade!

[Digouter]

Hello hello people! I figure it was high time I showed my face in this side of the forum haha. Hope everyone's been doing well

Okay, so I just wanted to share ideas about something that I know has already been talked about quiiite a bit in the forums: zeni/zenny, refractor shards, trade, and how it can be translated as a living, breathing system. Anyone who wants to craft their own Legend using the series as source material will very likely come across this coin conundrum and I wanted to share the system I'll be using for the story - maybe get a little discussion going!

Now I know what some'll be thinking; this is a game we're talking about! It would be frustrating to pick up refractor shards (some as big as Rock's head!), and heading to a middle man in order to convert it into the munnies we're more familiar with just to buy more stuff. I think the Legends series did well here, they made it convenient and zenny is pretty much just called that because it's what the currency in the Rockman series as a whole is called. The fact that there's a number system can be chalked up to weight and energy of the shard maybe, things like that.

Of course, what makes sense in a game doesn't necessarily apply in real-life... and crafting a meaningful story also includes crunching numbers and considering how the world handles trade. Nooot the most interesting topic, but I enjoy these things haha...

So! I'm not going to be too complicated here, I just want it to work and make a good deal of sense without making things too inconvenient. In my humble opinion, zenny needs to be a form of currency other than shards as well - but I'm not counting out shards because there will be merchants and diggers aaall over the world who will want to trade the ol' fashioned way and may not even accept anything other than the cool sparkly energems. This makes sense because so many things are powered by refractors as well as shards (with the shards powering smaller equipment and devices). For aesthetic reasons I don't want to size refractor shards down to make them viable as zenny both ways (though they will be a little smaller than in the game!). 

Megaman Legends is a Digger-centric world, true. But there are many, many other jobs out there... you could be a waitress, a nurse, a doctor, a spunky policewoman (Denise ), etc... I want those people to have an easier time with their munnies than lugging large shards around all the time. So I'm going to give them paper money (and coins) as a proper currency. In more advanced towns and cities where there are malls and the like, this feels a lot better overall. Then comes the question: who handles the conversion and distribution of it then?

We're going to need a pretty good global standard - a proper faction with the resources to print and mint! While the answer here is obvious to some (lookin' at you Dashe), the Diggers Guild fits the bill very nicely. We'll stuff Von Bleucher as one of the main backers and it makes sense because the dude is richer than the planet (again, Dashe's contribution)! I don't want to get too bogged down on the details since I want it to be simple too, so I'll leave it at that. The Diggers Guild handles the printing and minting, and the people who want to convert their shards are more than welcome to do so (this allows for a higher variety of purchases). Once again, the ol' fashioned way of trading is still more than possible because some diggers will only trade using refractor shards (perhaps for vehicles and machinery) - but not all establishments will take shards simply because paper money is easier to store (restaurants, convenience stores).

So in a nutshell, what I've crafted for the Legend I'm writing is that the system of trade uses zenny - both in shards (the pure form of zenny) and paper form (which the Diggers Guild distributes). If merchants who trade in shards want to get into the nitty gritty but have shards, then it shall be through color (which denotes how much energy it posseses), size and weight. Using up all the energy of a refractor will cause it to disappear (no husks for convenience's sake!). Aaand that's it! This also makes things like credit cards possible - was a bit inspired by Dashe's story haha.

So, what do you guys think? Too simple? Too complicated? Have your own ideas? I'd love to hear all of'em!

[HF]

Interestingly, I raised a similar discussion (though specifically towards vehicle culture and how it affects and makes distinct monetary value compared to what we're familiar with in real life) quite a bit ago!
I got my hands full at the moment, but here's the earlier thread for now. Would like to discuss in more detail later!

[Digouter]

Oh my gosh haha. Now that is just... beyond hairy... steel wool level x v x.

It's true that Zeni is technically Yen - it's why the Misadventure of Tron Bonne had such outrageous price ranges haha. I'm quiiite intimate with yen and its prices, which boggles the mind even more when the Geselllschaft is implied to be freakin' 1 million... that is basically the height of inconsistency (I can tell you now, a billion would be far more appropriate...). But this is considering each and every little detail of the real world!

I'd like to give refractor shards more worth generally. Perhaps these larger vehicles would cost less (perhaps even much less) if it was paid for in refractor shards! The regular jobs would generally be paid for in paper zenny, which is 1:1 with refractor shards most places you go. However, if you're looking to purchase something resembling the Drache, it would be best to gather a looot of shards. Things like cars would still be purchasable just fine with paper zenny though - it really depends on the merchant!

The big-time digger families and the sky pirates, they have a surplus of both paper money and refractor shards to be used wherever they're more effective. Toiletries and the like? Paper money is best. Need materials and junk to pay for the construction of a ship? Shards. Gonna be paying the people for said construction? That'll be up to their negotiations but it could go either way!

My head still wants to make everything as simple as possible while still being at least somewhat realistic haha. I'm not afraid to change a few things though to make the transition a little easier...

[Dashe]

I didn't think I'd done that much thinking on this kind of worldbuildling level. I'd just always used shards as shards, but having a choice of shards or currency makes using the vending machine a lot more plausible, and gives the Kattelox bank a function. So yeah, a civilian would probably favor currency for ease of use, and a mechanic would probably favor shards if they can also function as batteries. The idea of exchanging paper zenny for what essentially amounts to batteries at a bank also amuses me.

[Digouter]

Banks would have to be working veeery closely with the Diggers Guild, which thankfully isn't too far-fetched an idea! I actually didn't even consider the vending machine haha, that's a bonus.

I would generally limit the exchange from paper zenny to shard zenny though. Shards definitely have more use aside from currency so while shards can be exchanged for paper money for convenience's sake, it's trickier to accomplish the other way around (more paperwork maybe), and the ones who keep their shards (they'd have to find a way to properly store them if they deal in the hundreds of thousands or more) have access to more digger-centric vehicles and heavy-duty weaponry.

[HF]

Okay got a bit of time before back to work so here goes!

One way I want to interpret local currency is that it is specific to region/area for the sake of convenience and occupational practicality (on the assumption that only a small percentage actually handle refractor-based resources regularly).
For all we know, the amount of a money a person carries could be linked to the Citizen Card for the sake of convenience, even if relevant stores accept multiple currencies.

As for relevance to the Japanese Yen, I think it goes both ways but only because of different perception of value compared to what we are personally familiar with in real-life. Also the possibility that the 1M Zenny loan Teisel took was not 100% of the cost for the Gesellschaft, but what was needed to finalize it or at least pay for essentials.

The Zeni/Zenny (at least in context of MML1) is quite simple and is treated as a single currency AND value thanks to the entire game (not including prologue) taking place in one region. Unless some dividing factor (a Kattelexit?) happens I think the value remains consistent.

[Digouter]

I'm likin' that perspective! I think I'll borrow an aspect of that - particularly how the currency is specific to the region/area. My spin on it though is it applies to the different qualities of refractor shards in different areas.

In the story, refractor shards found in Calves Desert have a little more quality than those found in the numerous city ruins (it's the weight, size and the potential energy the refractor shards give). Granted it isn't tooo big a difference, but a little bit goes a long way! Oh, this is the other way around though, on the assumption that an okay percentage of people around the world handle refractor-based resources regularly (specifically the ones with a looot of munnies and so have more influence!).

And yeah, we don't really have to torture ourselves by saying that the Gessellschaft is 1M, a fewww subtle changes can be made to make our lives easier haha.

You definitely have it thought out a lot more than I have though! I still have the desire to keep things simple and innocent in a way, which is why my worldbuilding just ends in 'makes enough sense I guess' XD. I love hearing about your thoughts though, feel free to give us more hairy situations to talk through haha!

[avianbeauty98]

about zenny...  for example:
the source of the zenny that for example the mayor in kattelox has too disposal, is indeed the work of a digger. since refractors are found in ruins, kattelox island must had a few diggers around even before rock came there.  tough after the bonnes raid on the town hall, mayor Amelia requests some amount of zenny to repair the damage, meaning thashe hasn`t so much then. that also means that there hasn`t been enough diggers there lately. wich is catastrophic for hem tough. 

diggers collects refractors underground to trade them at a junk shop for zenny and this zenny is money that the junk dealer has either collected himself or got trought trade from othere diggers. and i assume the shops pays taxes to the town hall now and then. 

as for air pirates and people like lex loath and so.. these guys collect zenny just as any others only with a different purpose. tough lex loath collects zenny from diggers for his own purpose as you guys know.

what all of this means is that the currency is going in a kind of a circle. a trade-pay-collect cycle to be honest. 

that`s what i think at least. 

[Digouter]

Hiya AB! Nice to meetcha, and thanks for contributing haha.

That's a pretty neat perspective too, trying to go through the nitty gritty when it comes to Kattelox Island and how Rock and the Bonnes affected the economy there. True, the game just makes it overly convenient, but what you're saying makes a good deal of sense. It reminds me a little of HF's manga adaptation (if you haven't seen it, you really should), where the Junker's already pretty pissed with non-local diggers when Rock tries to rescue him (he call Rock an outer, which is like a derogatory term for digouter). Seems like Kattelox was in a pretty rough spot no matter how you look at it.

The trade-pay-collect cycle is just about right too. It's very much possible to simply stick with shards as currency and the world will go on spinning without too much trouble... but in the context of a story it starts to feel like a good chunk is missing which is pretty much why I posted to begin with haha. Happy to hear your thoughts!

[Mikéy]

Heyo. I believe that Zenny is about as flexible of a currency as we make it out to be. Banks exist for some reason or another, whether it's a city's commerce vault or otherwise, and their purpose is never explained.

I agree that a paper conversion system could potentially exist, and for the sake of a story's progression, I can see it as a necessity. But I also wouldn't be bothered if video game logic was also applied to the story and a character just packed around 1 million zenny's worth of shards in his armor either. Obviously each shard has a value plastered on it since their appearance scale is somewhat limited, but I figure size (or size and then color...?) would dictate the value overall as it does with Legends 2's bonus refractors. From there, maybe the shards would have more of a staunch criteria for value when storytelling.

Overall, the currency exchange is left to the imagination as much as the activation and function of reaverbots, origin of underground cities, and Megaman's past. We could (and many of us have) come up with theories for all of these mysterious subjects and it's likely our theories will never necessarily be busted because we lack new additions to the series.

Don't forget to share your story once you're sure of the direction you want to take with it!

[Dashe]

To further complicate things, Gold City seems to use actual gold for currency sitting in the bank. There's also the case of the Kimotoma gold statue, and that leads me to believe that gold is probably also usable as currency in some form. In any case, it has value, though it probably isn't that valuable since Kimotoma City could just buy another statue for 5,000 zenny. The gold ingots at the Gold City bank are worth $400,000 according to Estil's walkthrough. YMMV?

[Mikéy]

I forgot how much games like to exaggerate about the real world.

SPOILER: Click to show

Pretty sure they were still worth a pretty penny back in 2000, but today? Heck.

I always forget about the gold statue cuz it felt like such a pointless addition to the Blitzkrieg battle. Even if you manage to beat it without so much as scratching the statue, Blitzkrieg still rolls around and seemingly crushes the statue as you defeat it anyways, and that's legitimately what I thought happened as the cutscene ensued the first time I played MML2.

Since Legends is locked in time, it's safe to say that despite the rarity of gold, the world seems to value refractors much more because of the power crisis. They couldn't care much less about gold, it seems. It would also explain the lack of any paper currency. Either refractors or go back in the hole to dig some up.

[Avegodro]

I do believe the price of gold in both games can be explained easily. Ryship island seems to be a very successful island in trade, they have two harbors full of product. The large ranch teeming with animals to provide foodstuff and other things for trade. They have two towns, though one might just be a bunch of casinos. The large and very well equipped police force as well. It all says that Ryship has money, so the price of gold being 35,000 Z is not a surprise. The towns in Legends 2 however don't seem to focus on trade to the extent of Ryship island. They seem to be small well to do towns that had just a few shops here and there. Though 5000 Z for a famous statue of the city's founder does seem a little odd. Gold doesn't seem to be tied into their economy so it drives the price down.

Also the economy in the world of Legends is quite different, they don't have a global economy. Islands can have their populations reset by the system, maps of islands can be lost and then the island becomes forgotten. The energy crisis drives the economy, also the prevalent focus on items taken out of the ruins. All this ties into the economic situations of the hodgepodge of islands on Terra.

Hope this helps inspire more legends discussion, until next time. 

[Digouter]

Hiya Mikey and Avegodro! Happy to have you guys in the discussion as well, though I was out for quite a bit, sorry about that x _ x.

Regarding what you were saying Mike, that's pretty much why I had decided to start on the story after such a long time of having it swimming around in my head. It's sad that there probably won't be any new additions (anytime soon?), but it's caused a bit of a strange effect with the importance of what the fandom puts up for the Legends series in particular. Considering it's the only thing coming out, I don't know... it feels like fan creations are a little more legitimate haha. I'm not super hung up over the lack of explanation or with what we're given because yup yup, it's a game.

It makes for an interesting challenge to try to form something that fits nicely into the world and the setting while still being considered a living breathing system. I honestly hadn't even considered the gold! Still, it's not too bad, it just means that my story's global standard of paper money and shards, while being global is not the end-all be all for currency (being run by the Guild and the banks makes it the go-to though). As Avegodro put up quiiite nicely, the economic situation is fully dependent on both the energy crisis as well as what the individual islands have on hand. Now, this can cause a whole bunch more little problems, but it's believable enough that I'm not constantly scratching my head while writing up the story which is great haha...

On the topic of gold, the strange inconsistencies with its value in the Legends series is actually oddly realistic considering (or at least similarly diverse)!

This is all really quite awesome as it puts a lot of things into perspective that might be invisible to my story right now, but still plays an integral part in keeping things... well, real. So far though, Legend of the Spelunker currently only has it Prologue up here with some Concept Art in the appropriate section (thanks again Avegodro!). I am currently working on pushing out Chapter One, real work can just be so invasive and I'm terrible at multi-tasking haha.

Thanks again for the input guys - looking forward to hearing more!