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Post by HF on Mar 5, 2015 7:48:25 GMT -5
(Been following this thread quietly, thought I should hop in and share my thoughts on it as well!) If Ira had working limbs, she could even be the main character of this story. But unfortunately plot made her the "sick innocent child", and as for why prosthetic limbs were not used...? In that game there is the main plot factor of augmentation (replacing organic parts with mechanical and artificial) however in that world. Half of the population seem to be against augmentation, saying things like "it's against nature" or something similar. I see no reason for this to be also applied to Halcyon Days as well. While having the capability to swap body parts, there could still be people against doing that and maybe Ira's parents were also that kind of people. On one hand, trans-humanism is definitely a hotly debated topic in our current generation in both fiction and real-life. On the flip-side of things though, there has to be a pretty good reason for the general population of Terra to detest augmentations; if anything I imagine prosthetic limbs being favored in an era when mining hazards and active threats result in actually improving life (and with no 'stop to think' point when they were first put into practice, thus eliminating the 'are artificial limbs bad' scenario from the timeline). Definitely a factor to consider; and as we know rejection during operation AFTER her original legs have been sawed off will not end well at all. Another possible factor (and a common one in Black Jack stories involving children) is whether Ira even has the stamina to survive such an operation. Yes thats true. If its a nerve problem tgen the legs arnt really a problem. I dont know if there is alot of prosthetic based discrimination in the Halcyon. Mostly because no one ever seems to have a problem with it in the game. I didn't think so either, again considering how it has probably been put into common practice fast enough to not let debate grow among each community. Or who knows, maybe there can be an entire sub-population which pride themselves on augmentation... To be honest I have not really considered the prosthetics debate beyond being an individual decision each person makes when faced with such a scenario. Maybe I should steal and think on this. Maybe existing artificial legs are just too big and bulky to match Ira's small frame, coming to think of it. Maybe she could start lifting to balance it out...Back on topic, there's the possibility that some prosthetics are natural looking, made for the carbons that need an implant for non heavy work. Ira's new legs may be that kind of prosthetics. In that case, I guess we can expect RoboIra: The Million Zenny Girl in cinemas real soon!
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Post by satoh on Apr 2, 2015 2:00:32 GMT -5
I've always sort of considered the carbons to be more like semi-organic reproducing androids. Mostly because of some quotes in MML1 about how they were modified from the prototype anthro-units, which always seemed to be implied to be robots in my mind.
To me they aren't even slightly human from a biological sense, rather, they are "human" in that they live and act like humans. They're as human as androids can be, but they aren't literal humans. The whole purpose of the plot being that they aren't any less important just because they're not human. Because they aren't strictly human, they're a lot better adjusted to having random bits of shoddy machinery grafted on.
Some of the MML3 info actually mentioned that people indiscriminately applied prosthetics as needed, and that Trigger's body is purely mechanical(implying the one we see when we play, its unknown if that means all the time or not) More evidence is the concept documents clearly pointing out that he replaces his arms (they're not inside his weapons)
As for Ira specifically, I've always just thought that she was...lets say...buggy. Or broken... or something of that nature. The fixing part is most likely a replacement of the internal motor functions of her legs, or some kind of nerve-circuit interface. Which means technically, yes, most likely a prosthetic of some kind, but not necessarily a low tech one like you see everyone else walking around with.
It's also entirely possible that the hospital is just too poor to have any diagnostic equipment. Its not exactly a megacity.
I think part of the reason they never go into detail about everyone's prosthetics in the game is likely for the simple avoidance of body horror. A mechanical limb is perfectly fine until you start thinking about all the gross viscera involved in a realistic way. Its also highly likely that the Carbons are similar to humanoids a la ZX. Not wholly one thing or the other. Not really human; not really machine.
However, I think Ira could grow up to be some kind of cool mecha-leg digger-explorer or something.
Lastly, it could just be that the equipment they needed was ordinary medical equipment for ordinary leg fracture treatment, but the modelers didn't know how to convey "medical equipment" so they dropped in a random computer...thing.
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Post by Rockman Striker on Apr 3, 2015 1:59:34 GMT -5
I can't exactly imagine them being all semi-androids, Trigger definitely is part Android though, however some things can be explained if you think that way, for example, why would a junk store sell some kind of nano parts to increase health to the average carbon? Another thing that's been on my mind lately is why would the Master call them "decoy"? what does it mean? Trigger is the one who began calling them carbons for some reason.
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Post by HF on Apr 3, 2015 2:30:58 GMT -5
why would a junk store sell some kind of nano parts to increase health to the average carbon? The way I see it is that the "Life Parts" (strictly speaking) are upgrades that are only compatible with certain body types (if we're going for the whole swappable body parts idea). Alternately it is just a money sink for gameplay purposes. "Decoys" is the Japanese term for it, and was never referred as such in the English versions wasn't it?
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Post by satoh on Apr 3, 2015 12:33:40 GMT -5
A decoy is an artificial facsimile of a thing, that does not do what the original does nor is it as developed as the original.
Basically, the decoys "aren't real people". They were artificially created.
Just lends more credence to my belief that they weren't originally biological organisms. There's no reason to use bioforms when a machine is sufficient, since a machine is easier to make.
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Post by Rockman Striker on Apr 13, 2015 12:10:01 GMT -5
That's a good answer satoh. I got confused with both version's terminologies, on the English version the Master calls them "betas" which may mean that they're some kind of attempt to create humans but something went wrong, maybe their lifespan is shorter than the average human and they need this mechanical improvements in order to keep living a bit longer.
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Post by satoh on Apr 13, 2015 15:51:23 GMT -5
Beta/Decoy etc. They're just automata sent to do a thing, which is get Terra under control and ready for humans. Alphas could have been security bots for example. Or it could mean that the Betas are simply less important than the Alphas, which could also be bureaucratic units installed on the surface.
The name Beta and Decoy mean about as much as "Mega Man" in system terms. It seems most likely that the Master was just modified a mass produced unit to be self-aware, reproducing, sentient, sapient beings. The Carbons we think of now are just the result of the technobiological evolution that started. They were never meant to be Human, he had a library full of Human. What he wanted was simple people. A fresh start to civilization, without all the baggage Humanity proper had accumulated... without all the excess baggage he had in his life, like living indefinitely, having his every need cared for by something else, etc. He was trying to live vicariously through them, and they were the result of his desire to create offspring that would have a better life than him, (a simpler life).
and Ira with big honkin' Robolegs seems like a cool idea for a digger >.>
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Post by Typhon Purifier 89 on Jul 16, 2015 16:10:57 GMT -5
I'm gonna go with no on the prostethics. Although it's obvious that a lot of the characters have them, like Teisel or Barrel or even Joe, it's pretty obvious that they are MEANT to look that way, as though fashioned from reaverbot parts. I think it was the original intention for you to be able to buy the hospital equipment that allows you to FIX her legs, not replace them entirely. Given the fact that you see her feet in the slippers, I don't think its really a prosthetic. Granted, it could just be made to look like a true limb, but if that were the case, why wouldn't they have done that for any of the other replacements? In MML2, when the junk shop owner is talking about how he lost his arm in a dig, if that sort of technology was available, why wouldn't he have just replaced it with a more normal looking arm? Obviously if it were an cybernetic of some kind, all of the attributes of a prosthetic arm would remain, regardless of what it looked like. And I don't think that Megaman is some form of cyborg either. The apron scene is really enough evidence of it, but really I think that when most people think about him BEING some form of cyborg, they are just connecting the previous versions with the legends one. It is a good theory, but I think Inafune wanted a game where Megaman was "human" in most respects. He is obviously a carbon now, and while I'm sure that prosthetic would be POSSIBLE, I'm not sure there is any benefit to doing it in his case, as he case armor and weapons designed by Roll to be convertible on his armor...
Also, I don't really like the idea of having all of his limbs being detachable in that way. I can see the point though... the rocket launcher weapon in MML2 IS pretty small in comparison to his actual arm...
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Post by satoh on Jul 16, 2015 17:55:39 GMT -5
I'm gonna go with no on the prostethics. Although it's obvious that a lot of the characters have them, like Teisel or Barrel or even Joe, it's pretty obvious that they are MEANT to look that way, as though fashioned from reaverbot parts. I think it was the original intention for you to be able to buy the hospital equipment that allows you to FIX her legs, not replace them entirely. Given the fact that you see her feet in the slippers, I don't think its really a prosthetic. Granted, it could just be made to look like a true limb, but if that were the case, why wouldn't they have done that for any of the other replacements? In MML2, when the junk shop owner is talking about how he lost his arm in a dig, if that sort of technology was available, why wouldn't he have just replaced it with a more normal looking arm? Obviously if it were an cybernetic of some kind, all of the attributes of a prosthetic arm would remain, regardless of what it looked like. And I don't think that Megaman is some form of cyborg either. The apron scene is really enough evidence of it, but really I think that when most people think about him BEING some form of cyborg, they are just connecting the previous versions with the legends one. It is a good theory, but I think Inafune wanted a game where Megaman was "human" in most respects. He is obviously a carbon now, and while I'm sure that prosthetic would be POSSIBLE, I'm not sure there is any benefit to doing it in his case, as he case armor and weapons designed by Roll to be convertible on his armor... Also, I don't really like the idea of having all of his limbs being detachable in that way. I can see the point though... the rocket launcher weapon in MML2 IS pretty small in comparison to his actual arm... I agree on the point about prosthetics in the DASHverse being intentionally obvious. I disagree on your notion that Trigger is not replacing his body parts. You've neglected the concept documents explicitly stating that Trigger's body parts get [replaced] by different weapons, and also the fact that many of his weapons CAN'T fit limbs inside. Vacuum arm for example. Shield arm too IIRC. Moreover, if MML3 is at all worth paying attention to, you can even see that his body has ball-hinge joints. Trigger's body is literally a machine. The apron scene you claim as evidence, is evidence of nothing. It's simply his non combat parts, which are probably alike those of any carbon. Also worth mentioning is that his body, in regular clothes in that scene, would not fit inside his armed form. His armored body doesn't have human proportions, while his apron'd form does. He would have to wear the most hardcore corset ever to actually fit in the blue tin can if it was actually "armor." I'd say there's actually more evidence that carbons are NOT like ordinary humans than there is that Trigger IS. The only carbons we ever see take part in combat, survive ridiculous amounts of punishment, and not all of it can just be shrugged off as cartoon violence. Example: The carbons on the forbidden island, who have been frozen for years, possibly decades, are revived and fine after Trigger conquers the island. Klaymoor is another good example of why "carbons in armor" must be mechanical. His spine can literally turn an indefinite number of degrees. Inafune definitely wanted a game where Rock was more like a normal person than previous incarnations... however, in the game he has actually redefined what a normal person is. A "normal person" is an artifical human substitute created by some old dude on the moon several centuries ago, probably out of androids, of which he had many, rather than purely biological forms, which we have no evidence of aside from him and a scant few kinds of wild animals, which we don't even know for certain are natural either for that matter.
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Post by Dashe on Jul 16, 2015 18:11:18 GMT -5
Do you think Mega Man just screwed his head onto a normal-looking body when he was in the apron? Makes you wonder what the inside of his closet looks like. There could very well be a room full of headless human-looking bodies on the Flutter somewhere with a port for Mega Man's noggin to attach.
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Post by Typhon Purifier 89 on Jul 16, 2015 19:20:23 GMT -5
Well, the thing is that what you are backing up is a matter of game mechanics, not necessarily about what the story is supposed to convey.
You could look at any anime or cartoon and see that proportions aren't close to reality. Look at... well... literally any manga or anime ever. Body size, proportion, ability; NONE of this are even within the realm of calling "normal" and yet it's accepted that they are still HUMAN. Basically you are equating your entire argument based on an artistic style, not any thematic representation.
Also the people on forbidden island weren't said to be frozen, you just assumed they were cause everything else was. They could have been in a technology, just like you say Megaman's limbs could also be cybernetic, so that isn't a good example.
Neither is Klaymoor. He actually IN GAME throws his back out fighting you. And it's not cybernetic. You HEAR it, and he can't move, and he's in PAIN. So that's a pretty terrible representation of your point.
Those things you say "can't just be construed as cartoon violence" ARE cartoon violence. You are once again showing the difference between game mechanics and themes. You have people fighting against you, or get blown up by bombs, so you assume that everyone must be unreasonably strong? You have to remember that although this is a story, it's also a video game. They have to maintain that representation during parts, or it makes absolutely no sense.
It's sort of the same argument people used to have with me over Roll. Obviously she's stealing from you because upgrading the shining laser costs 91394857239458723049875 zenny, thus making her a jerk... No... That's a game mechanic. Plus, if everyone was what you are describing, why is it that there are people who are EVER in danger? They are all super cybernetic carbons with detachable parts! Why is there a hospital, and why does the man in the lobby get sick? Because he's a person.
Or maybe you're saying that only Megaman is this type of person... Well it's pretty much exactly what Dashe said, for it to be possible for what you're thinking to be the case, he would literally have to be a living head. As he was found as a whole baby in the Nino Island Ruins, and GREW UP with them, it sort of makes that argument pretty moot. Or, if that's not the case, you are saying that this was acquired AFTER that, which would mean that anything, including his "overly cinched" torso would be some form of mechanics. If you draw this argument out logically, it makes no sense.
While I am one for trying to figure out the lore of a game, you can't draw conclusions based on a game mechanic. Especially Klaymoor. Cause that's just silly. Most likely they didn't feel like animating any more battle stances for him because he DOESN'T MOVE during the fight, because as a boss he had a very particular movement style you needed to figure out to beat him. They then explained it away by saying he LITERALLY herniated a disc trying to fight you, because he is old.
But don't get me wrong, I see what you mean. I mean, look at his room, he even has an oil can on the ground that he says he's gonna knock over. Why is that in there if he isn't made out of mechanics? Also, no wardrobe, which is really weird, as it's totally obvious in the other two rooms that THEY have them. So you definitely have an idea that has merits.
Also... sort of puts it into a weird perspective on the relationship of Megaman and Roll... I mean... does he have OTHER attachments? LOL
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Post by satoh on Jul 16, 2015 21:48:12 GMT -5
Also... sort of puts it into a weird perspective on the relationship of Megaman and Roll... I mean... does he have OTHER attachments? LOL I'm sure Roll has enough scrap to make them if she hasn't already. As for the charge, well... I imagine that would be waived for... reasons.
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Post by Loken on Jul 16, 2015 23:25:14 GMT -5
Carbons are not robots, but neither are they entirely human. It is a confirmed canon fact that Rock has at least some detachable parts. Klaymoor most likely has some cybernetic parts, but obviously not his back! Joe has prosthetic, but he is also bleeding in the Yosyonke ruins. So it is really not a case of one or the other, they have both biological and cybernetic parts. Or pseudo-biological at least.
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Post by HF on Jul 18, 2015 10:09:03 GMT -5
It is a confirmed canon fact that Rock has at least some detachable parts. So it appears a few more living parts need to go if his dream is to come true.
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