How Would YOU Fix Legends' Plot? *Massive Spoilers, ahoy!*

[Kyle]

If you haven't played any of the Legends titles, then this thread is NOT for you, trust me. Some major spoilers and YMMV will be taking place inside this post, and possibly all future posts.

---

I reaaaaaally disliked the plot of Legends 2. So, I got to thinking; What would I do to fix it, given the opportunity? Look at it this way, alright? In MML1, there wasn't really a looming threat constantly overhead, unless you count the Bonnes, but seriously, what sane person would? Then, during the final stretch of the game, you learn about Juno and the Carbon Reinitlization Program. That's some serious business compared to the rest of the game's tone. But, hey, a final boss has to have some intimidation factor, so let it slide. Once Ellen Page is defeated, and the Program thwarted, you have a horrible gut-feeling that this isn't the end. This single island was obviously part of a bigger picture, but nobody has a clue what, why, where or even how. This is a good thing, in the same way of Lovecraftian horror. If you don't know what the Big Bad is, or even what he/she/it looks like, it builds up suspense. And so, MML1 ends on a pretty decent note. Giving Volnutt a mysterious and edgy past was a bit unnecessary, but let's call it an isolated case. Maybe it'll be retconned, I dunno. 

Now! Here's when MML2 messed everything up. You are completely spoonfed and constantly being lead around by the plot itself. Within thirty minutes of even playing the game, you're introduced to the (extremely obvious) Big Bad. Greaaaaaat. We know what they look like, and the game is just beginning. Okay, fine, let's salvage what we can. I can't wait to... find the MacGuffins in the Four Temples of the Elements?! Oh, come fucking off it, Capcom! Okay, okay. We'll continue to truck on, despite the narration being a complete and utter tool. The MacGuffins are in our possession, and we get... betrayed! Huraah! I called it! Then a buncha exposition pulled out of the ass of one of Capcom's employees happens, we do the obligatory boss-rush, and the game ends in the same vein as MML1. Just not accomplished as well.

So... that's the gist of it, I suppose. What would any of you guys change in MML plot-wise? Personally, I'd start off by removing Volnutt's backstory completely, and dumping it onto Data. It would actually work pretty well (and still make sense within the canon) if Data, your longtime companion, was actually a 'reincarnated' Purifier Unit.

[Dashe]

Legends 1 was pretty good. I don't think I'd change anything except add in a hyper cartridge canteen, the weapon recharge pickups, and make the controls a lot smoother.

I'd start off by eliminating that boss rush and totally revamping the four main ruins so they're not as blatantly elemental. Of the four of them Calinca and Nino are by far the worst offenders. Saul Kada might have been interesting if it were more of an infernal machine sort of motif as opposed to "Look at this obvious fire-themed dungeon!"

Legends 2 also introduced too many antagonists at once. As much as I love Glyde, I didn't think he was really necessary in Legends 2. He definitely lost his creepy campiness factor between MoTB and Legends 2, and he really just detracted from the Bonnes instead of actually supplementing them.

I suppose the biggest thing I'd have done was wait a few more years and just released Legends 2 on PS2, so less would end up getting cut. They ended up having to cut a lot for space's sake, and that might have accounted for a ton of its shortcomings. Either that, or I'd have scaled down the game's scope by about half. I'd rather have two sandboxy locations with well-designed ruins instead of four very limited locations with cliche ruins.

I think if they made Yuna out to be more of a bad guy in the start, and actually had Sera seem actively helpful instead of completely antisocial, they could have pulled off that bait-n-switch way better.

[Servbot42]

You guys still talk about Legends here? What a crazy concept!

Jan 31, 2014 15:37:20 GMT -5 Kyle said:

If you haven't played any of the Legends titles, then this thread is NOT for you, trust me. Some major spoilers and YMMV will be taking place inside this post, and possibly all future posts.

---

I reaaaaaally disliked the plot of Legends 2. So, I got to thinking; What would I do to fix it, given the opportunity? Look at it this way, alright? In MML1, there wasn't really a looming threat constantly overhead, unless you count the Bonnes, but seriously, what sane person would? Then, during the final stretch of the game, you learn about Juno and the Carbon Reinitlization Program. That's some serious business compared to the rest of the game's tone. But, hey, a final boss has to have some intimidation factor, so let it slide. Once Ellen Page is defeated, and the Program thwarted, you have a horrible gut-feeling that this isn't the end. This single island was obviously part of a bigger picture, but nobody has a clue what, why, where or even how. This is a good thing, in the same way of Lovecraftian horror. If you don't know what the Big Bad is, or even what he/she/it looks like, it builds up suspense. And so, MML1 ends on a pretty decent note. Giving Volnutt a mysterious and edgy past was a bit unnecessary, but let's call it an isolated case. Maybe it'll be retconned, I dunno. 

Now! Here's when MML2 messed everything up. You are completely spoonfed and constantly being lead around by the plot itself. Within thirty minutes of even playing the game, you're introduced to the (extremely obvious) Big Bad. Greaaaaaat. We know what they look like, and the game is just beginning. Okay, fine, let's salvage what we can. I can't wait to... find the MacGuffins in the Four Temples of the Elements?! Oh, come fucking off it, Capcom! Okay, okay. We'll continue to truck on, despite the narration being a complete and utter tool. The MacGuffins are in our possession, and we get... betrayed! Huraah! I called it! Then a buncha exposition pulled out of the ass of one of Capcom's employees happens, we do the obligatory boss-rush, and the game ends in the same vein as MML1. Just not accomplished as well.

So... that's the gist of it, I suppose. What would any of you guys change in MML plot-wise? Personally, I'd start off by removing Volnutt's backstory completely, and dumping it onto Data. It would actually work pretty well (and still make sense within the canon) if Data, your longtime companion, was actually a 'reincarnated' Purifier Unit.

I'll agree that Megaman didn't necessarily have to be linked to the System. It's not something that exactly blew my mind when it was fleshed out in the second game.

It's been awhile since I've played any of the games, and your comments on the first one are giving me new perspective. The ruins, along with all of the system relics in that game, were really fantastic until the very end. They leave you with a foreboding, hair-on-the-back-of-your-neck-standing-up sort of feeling. With the generally cheery atmosphere and characters, the wacky Bonnes as your enemies, and the seemingly benign quest for treasure at the fore, the eerie ruins filled with robotic enemies that run the gamut in terms of appearance from unsettling to genuinely scary are the fly in the ointment. They're a stark contrast to the rest of the game and they really make you wonder. I really love that about the game, even if I only just learned to appreciate that.

Even though what I just rambled on about wasn't really related to the plot, I don't think I would change anything in that department. Maybe I would remove MM's backstory, or at least have been more subtle about it. The end left us with enough questions, and heaping a weird backstory onto the main character was possibly a bit much. 

As for the second game, eh. It doesn't bother me that it was obvious that Sera was the bad guy. I don't think every story has to follow a formula where the big bad isn't immediately revealed. Though I do agree with Dashe - genuinely making us believe that Sera was on our side while Yuna was the real enemy for awhile could have been great. 

Megaman Legends 2 honestly doesn't sit that well with me, though I can't explain why. Maybe it's the ending. Maybe it's that the game overall feels...unfocused? The island hopping was interesting, and seems like the obvious route for a sequel, but none of the islands made me feel anything. Contrast that with Kattelox, which I had grown very attached to by the end of the first game. The only location I actually liked was the island that had Glyde's fortress. That place had some MML1 vibes, with all of the ruins and the kids saying their parents turned into "stars" and the giant object lying around that looks like the Carbon Reinitialization...thing that hovered over the city in the first game. 

Weird. I really can't say what I would do differently with the second game if I can't determine what bothers me about it.

Another thing I had never realized until now: MML2, or at least the boss rush at the end, was probably meant to be a return to form. All of the other Megaman games involved you going to a themed location, fighting through it, and then fighting a boss. At the end of the game, you would fight those bosses one last time before proceeding onto the final boss...which is what they did with Legends 2. Where there a lot of people complaining that Legends just wasn't Megaman-y enough? Though the islands you go to aren't completely linear, the overall structure of the game feels much more constrained by the hunt for the keys. Maybe that's what bothers me.

[demonfang178]

'Sup. I guess I'd have to start with the world itself. Before Legends 2, I always called bull on the notion that Legends takes place in the same universe as the Classic/X/Zero series. We have a vague idea of what happened (it would probably be less vague to me if I actually played the Zero series)), a vague idea of how long it has been (I think Juno or the Kattlelox library give you an idea), let's make a game around that...and somehow incorporate digging into it. Travel between islands, learn tidbits about their history, and then have you confront the past in the present. I dunnno, I just spitballing here.

Next, the characters. This only became a problem in Legends 2. In Legends 1, within the first 10 seconds you have a pretty good idea what Mega's and Roll's job is despite knowing little about them. You see Mega nab some treasure and escape a booby-trapped room with Roll guiding him. In Legends 2, he starts off wearing an apron. >_> Simply put, if you didn't play Legends 1 before 2, the game screws you over in terms of introduction. You have to actually learn about the characters, their plight, and keep an air of mystery around the them. Legends 1 does that for every major character...except Gramps. Seriously, what does he even do?

That's why I'd advise having new leads in the (hopefully) next game. You learn more about returning characters because the one you are playing as knows nothing about them. And Klaymoor has to return. It always struck me as odd because he had more drive to find the Mother Lobe than even Roll and then he just quits.

Now for the actual plot fixing. Well, Legends 2 just has a crapload of plot holes, inconsistences, and things that just don't make sense. Why have 4 keys on Terra that just open a door on the Moon. Blucher (sp?) invested some much time and money into landing on Forbidden Island, but he never researched HOW people landed on it initially? Data still doesn't tell Mega about his past. I think Yuna does that. A fire in the kitchen spreads through two rooms (three if the bathroom counts), but the kitchen isn't completely on fire. The first boss shouldn't even be able to fit through the door to cause trouble for the town anyway. In fact, it's never stated that reaverbots can even leave their dungeon. The Nino Island saga and how everyone is so trigger happy with self destruct buttons. Sera can't defy the system yet her parameters allow her to trigger the Carbon Reinitlization Program in the first place and fight a being that likely outranks her anyway. And then her justification is to be through with troublesome emotions or some such? Whatever. I have more but I'll stop here.

While Legends (2) has some plot issues...you can't fix most of these. The damage is done. You can retcon Mega's past, although I don't know how what with being two games in and all. And getting Mega off the moon doesn't feel like something big enough to be a primary focus of a game unless there's an underlining reason for going to Elysium.

[Servbot42]

Well. I think the point was that the time period, what happened in the interim between Legends and the last games, and why the world is the way it is is supposed to be vague. Firmly explaining the time period and the lore of the world has never been important in Megaman games as far as I'm aware. Aren't the originals set in 20XX or something? The opening of the first game gives us all the information we really need to know for the purpose of understanding the characters and the story. I like lore, and there's a lot about the world of Legends that I would like to know, but I don't think that information is critical at all to the story of the games.

I guess I can't disagree that Legends 2 does assume you know the characters, but is that really an issue? It says clearly on the box that it is Megaman Legends 2. It's kind of your fault if you just jump into it and get frustrated because you have no idea who anyone is. I despise the handholding that goes on in current games, and I like it when games (Or books, movies, etc...) have the stones to just assume you aren't starting in the middle of a story and waste no time on reintroducing characters you should already know. And I can't remember if they explain it in the game, although I'm certain I read it in the instruction booklet or some other source material, but Gramps is basically a retired digger who now acts a mentor to Roll and Megaman. He's probably also their legal guardian, if such concepts are relevant in their world, since those two are only fourteen. Even if that isn't explained in the game, I think there are plenty of elements about his character -- his design, his wisdom about digging and things in general, and his cabin full of artifacts and treasures from his earlier years of digging -- that can be used to interpret this without it being directly stated.

As for that last big paragraph...eh. No offense, but most of that seems like nitpicking to me. The key thing was definitely trite. I'm not sure I follow with the Blucher thing. Is it a plot hole or inconsistency if Data isn't the one to tell Megaman about his past so long as it gets told? And I thought Data actually was the one to tell you once you reach Elysium? The fire thing... come on now. Compared to everything else we're talking about, does that matter at all? Ditto with the reaverbot and the door. That's game stuff and neither ultimately affects the plot in the slightest. And I don't remember enough about the Sera fight to talk with authority, but I'm pretty sure a Mother Unit outranks any Purifier Unit considering they were just below the Master on the totem pole. And I'm not sure what you're getting at with her parameters in regard to carbon reinitialization. Are you saying she shouldn't be able to do that? If so, why? A lower-ranking Purifier like Juno had that authority, so why wouldn't a Mother Unit?

[demonfang178]

You can keep the big cataclysmic event vague but still have a chunk of the story centered around it unless whatever happened in the Zero series really does have to be addressed in order for this to work. It would be considerably less vague if it's even acknowledged and actually difficult to pull off now that I think about it, but within the realm of possibility.



That's the thing. In every characters' first scene, you have an idea of who they are and what they do. Legends 1 "introduces" characters by action, while Legends 2 dumps an 8 minute cutscene on you to get a feeling on everyone. I would understand if this was just for the returning characters, but it's for the new ones too (I am really just talking about Bola and Klaymoor, whom I had to look back to see if they were even in the intro). I guess it's not entirely fair since Legends 1 focused on just one group and 2 focuses on three, but by the end I feel nothing for any of them except Glyde who may be dead, Roll for obvious reasons, and Tiesel and Tron and that's only because of the connection I made from the previous game. To me, some leeway has to be given, but a sequel should be able to stand on its own and I just don't feel Legends 2 does that in terms of plot or characters.

As for Gramps, I understood that he was a retired digger, I meant what does he do now. I never got a mentor vibe from him (although I can acknowledge that would be his actual title) and even less so in Legends 2.

Yes, most of the last paragraph is nitpicking. Individually, none of them are that big a deal except of the key thing and Sera as I consider a big hole in the main quest and the reason why the final boss is trying to kill you, respectively, to be pretty important. It's just that all of them together really takes a player out of the game. When someone can point out holes in a crisis immediately, it kills suspense, pacing, and suspension of disbelief.

Just to quickly address some that I weren't clear on. For Blucher's, I mean a dropship is the only way to land on the island and you'd think that someone who spent 10 or so years studying the island would know that. It's...actually neither a plot hole nor inconsistency if Data doesn't tell Mega about his past, just something I found odd. And you're right, it might be him and Yuna who explain it and I am just remembering it wrong. For Sera's, okay, she should be allowed to activate the CRP, I see that now. But I just don't think a Mother Unit should be able to challenge a Purifier Model on just a whim. It's clear that it's petty revenge for her and she more or less just uses the CRP as a ploy to lure you.

I hope I am not coming off as argumentative. I just get...passionate about my opinions.

[Servbot42]

You're not coming off as argumentative at all. This feels like a discussion about a subject between two people who are interested in it, not an argument. 



I agree that it's completely possible to include plot elements that explore the world, but I just never thought it was really needed. If there was going to be a Legends 3 as the original creators envisioned it, it seems like they were going to explore this more in the third game anyway. Perhaps not, but if the Elder System came before the Master System, I assume there would have been at least some exploration of what led to the world as it currently is. I know you are saying that should have been in the first game, but I think the mystique is a big part of the atmosphere of that game. Plainly laying everything out, or even some of it really, would have been a complete buzzkill to me. They began exploring the past with the end of the first one, chunks of the second one, and they probably would have gotten much more in depth with the third one...It's just to bad we never got it. Either way, an approach like that is how I would have preferred it. 

I'll agree that in the manner they were presented, the new characters of Legends 2 were not as memorable as the ones who were already introduced. I don't think the opening is purely to blame for that. If they wanted to, I think they could have explored some of the new characters later on. They just didn't. Bola and Klaymoor probably should have just been more Bonne and Glyde fights. They were pointless as characters. They might as well have been random guys who just showed up and died for all it mattered. I don't know if I've been projecting this, but I want to be on record stating that MML2 is not a perfect game in a lot of ways. I still enjoy it, but it's got issues that are exclusive to it and it alone that even a sequel wouldn't have really fixed retroactively. 


As for Gramps, I think he was just kind of in the background in the games because these weren't his adventures. He's their father figure, and I like that they added him instead of just saying that these two 14-year-olds are running around the world all on their own in their yellow flying ship. And who else could be their mentor? They had to learn these skills somewhere. It wasn't major, but he did serve a purpose in the story.


I agree that little issues can compound and break your suspension of disbelief, but I just can't relate in this case because those things didn't do that for me. And I guess Blucher wanted to send a giant ship to the island because...it's cool? It's safer to go in a giant, armored ship rather than a rickety tube? idk. I really get the feeling Mother Units can do whatever they want unless they're overruled by the Master. But he's dead, so I think Sera was just doing whatever she wanted to. And I'm thinking that was part of her character. She was masking her animosity towards Trigger with cold logic that wasn't really her driving motivation. Or was it? The problem with taciturn characters like that is that it's hard to know what they're all about. I get that she didn't like Trigger, but would she go through that whole elaborate scheme just to fight him?

As an aside to this discussion, I watched the opening of MML2  again and I have to say that Yuna's behavior really bugs the hell out of me. She shows up, gives an extremely vague warning, blows out a window, and flys away on a robot dragon, but not before saying something nonsensical about "the child". And she's all, "You've been warned!" About what!? Why are you being so vague? If you don't want Sera to be released, why not just tell them that the Mother Lode is actually an ancient robot girl who will try to kill everyone on the planet if you let her out? I suppose that would surprise the hell out of some people, probably shake up their civilization in some ways, but what does Yuna care? I'm surprised she doesn't speak exclusively in rhyming riddles when she teams up with Megaman later on considering the way she acts at the beginning of the game. 

[Kyle]

I completely advocate your discussion, guys. By all means, continue.

Personally, I wouldn't retcon all of the Elysium stuff. It just seems that Carbons are always second-banana to the artificial races. Ironic, I know, considering their origins, but having the Carbonhydrates themselves finally surpass their creators would give them, y'know, a purpose. I suppose Yuna's cryptic warnings were just an attempt from the writers to create suspense, though it failed miserably when anybody with half a brain-cell saw the totes' evil Sera.

[demonfang178]

Good. Only get one shot at a first impression.

I dunno. I just prefer it when the last installment of a series hits that sweet spot of explaining just enough to have closure, but being open enough that fan fiction can exist. Golden Sun: The Lost Age (completely ignoring the fact that it has a sequel) does it, most Final Fantasies do it. If Legends 2 wasn't the last game, I'd be fine with some of the hanging plotlines...except Roll's dad. That's something that needed to be resolved in the initial game.

And I don't think the first game needed that much depth about the world. It explains just enough of the world give the player an idea of what's going on and then focuses the majority on the characters. Just enough to get the players' feet wet and not overwhelm them with how convoluted the plot could easily get. Only thing I'd change about Legends 1 is more Tiesel.

As for Sera, hmm. Suppose Mega had lost, would she still activate the CRP? If she's using cold logic then it doesn't matter (to her) if she annihilates the Carbons because they'll just make more. I'll have to replay Legends 2 because I forgot Mother Units are supposed to do.

[Dashe]

Legends 2 certainly wasn't meant to be the last game. I'd always thought the cliffhanger was meant to persuade Capcom that 3 needed to happen. No dice, huh?

[Dragge]

All those unanswered questions that actually have answers!!! Gahh Capcom!!!

[Servbot42]

Mar 30, 2014 18:10:20 GMT -5 Kyle said:

I suppose Yuna's cryptic warnings were just an attempt from the writers to create suspense, though it failed miserably when anybody with half a brain-cell saw the totes' evil Sera.

Yeah, and it also makes her look like kind of a dumb asshole. "Hmm. There's this thing I really don't want to happen, and it looks like these dumb carbons are about to make that happen. What's the least useful thing I can do prevent them from doing that? Why don't I pose as a reporter, say a bunch of things that might as well be gibberish to them and then really lend myself some credibility by flying away on a Reaverbot? This plan needs no further consideration. Gatz, let's go!."

Mar 31, 2014 18:29:33 GMT -5 demonfang178 said:

As for Sera, hmm. Suppose Mega had lost, would she still activate the CRP? If she's using cold logic then it doesn't matter (to her) if she annihilates the Carbons because they'll just make more. I'll have to replay Legends 2 because I forgot Mother Units are supposed to do.

I really do think Sera's main goal was to eradicate the carbons. Logically, she seemed to view them as pointless, wasteful distractions for the Master. Emotionally, she resented them just as much as Trigger because they were another thing the Master loved. Either way, she wanted them gone. I think for her they were the main course and killing Megaman was just the desert.

[Dashe]

The Carbons were just the massive Sims game that the Master had become dangerously addicted to, and Sera wanted him to stop playing because it was really cutting into his social life.

[Kyle]

Apr 1, 2014 17:42:57 GMT -5 Dashe said:

The Carbons were just the massive Sims game that the Master had become dangerously addicted to, and Sera wanted him to stop playing because it was really cutting into his social life.

I'd personally believe she'd be more worried about his incessant need to trap Carbons in a 2x2 grid with no food or amenities, and watch them slowly wet themselves, pass out from exhaustion, then die from starvation. The Master was a reaaaaaaal creep, eh?

[Servbot42]

That Master, what a joker!