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Post by Buster Cannon on Aug 20, 2013 19:44:40 GMT -5
I know the topic of remakes comes up quite a quite a bit, but I'm curious as to what exactly that would entail. Since they're remakes and not new games I'd want them to feel like their source material, but there's still some stuff that I'd modify:
Both games
+ Updated graphics
+ Core gameplay unchanged (i.e. running/jumping physics are the exact same).
+ New Game Plus is available as an option after beating one of the games. You get to play the game over again on any currently available difficulty, but you have access to all of your equipment and weapons that you gained on your first playthrough. This allows you to test out your new toys on old bosses.
+ Ultimate Difficulty now available. Game is set to Hard Mode but you have the Easy Mode attributes of zenny being worth more and Buster Max/Accesory Pack Omega.
+ Major glitches fixed.
MML1
Honestly I think the game is mostly flawless (graphics aside) after all this time, so there's not too much I would change as far as the main playthrough goes. Still some stuff I would change though:
Visual Changes
+ Text boxes have the stylized look of MML2.
+ Health bar has a cracked appearance when the Life Shield breaks.
+ Pause Menu is organized in a similar fashion as MML2's.
Gameplay Changes
+ There's a segment in Clozer Ruins where you have to destroy a dirt wall in order to reach the elevator that takes you to the Karumuna Bash room. I'd scrap that dirt wall entirely. I hate the fact that you're essentially forced to go back to the Flutter just to break a single wall, and it doubles as artificial difficulty since you now have to fight 3 very mobile reaverbots with a weapon that nails your feet to the ground. No bueno.
+ You can kick Paprika in the American version, as well as shoot birds and all that jazz.
+ Enemies now drop weapon recovery crystals along with health cubes.
+ 'Very Hard' Mode where reaverbots/bosses have modified AI patterns and new attacks.
+ More genres of music to sample to at High Necked Records.
Weapon Changes
The lower-end special weapons are buffed so that they aren't nearly as bad. This includes:
+ Grenade Arm damage increased.
+ Powered Buster explosion radius and damage slightly increased.
+ Blade Arm damage increased.
+ Shield Arm has faster startup and recovery
MML2
Game would still play the same, but I'd change a few things to make MML2 more depthy:
Visual Changes
+ Data Dances when you talk to him, like in MML1.
Gameplay Changes
+ The various islands in the game are expanded and allow for greater exploration. I'd make it so that it's un-required exploration (you can still beat the game just doing the same stuff you'd do in normal MML2), but you'd be able to find stuff such as extra ruins, maybe even a couple of hidden towns. The islands in MML2 were so huge and yet you weren't really allowed to go anywhere important. Overall just make the islands and towns more like you saw in MoTB and the MML2 demo.
+ As stated in the above point, more optional ruins! Just a few extra sprinkled throughout the islands would be great. If an island has multiple ruins having some inter-connectivity wouldn't hurt.
+ Able to play as multiple character skins for kicks and giggles, as was initially planned for the game.
+ Nino Ruins gets a complete overhaul. The ruin would still utilize underwater mechanics (without slowdown), but would have a far less linear design.
+ Mayor's quiz has more questions that are actually about Megaman Legends.
+ Very Hard Mode as-is is too focused on artificial difficulty. Undo the degraded zenny rate, and instead focus on making the enemies and bosses tougher. This includes new AI patterns, attacks, and upped HP values.
+ Shoebafun removed from the game. (Seriously, I hate those things.)
+ Re-configure the Mother Area so that the Boss re-fights aren't spread across 4 floors. Keeping them all in the same floor and placing them in separate rooms (that can be accessed in any order) would be fine.
Weapon Changes
+ I'd like to see the Buster mechanics for Energy, Range, and Rapid go back to the way they were in MML1. They just made so much more sense to me. Obviously they'd have to re-do some of the buster parts to compensate (since Rapid caps out at 4), but I like that system over MML2's 'mash up to rapid fire' strategy.
+ Weapon upgrade prices set at their PSP values.
The lower-end special weapons are buffed so that they aren't nearly as bad. This includes:
+ Reflector Arm's damage buffed. It also hits harder after every consecutive wall-bounce (think MM10's Rebound Striker).
+ Machine Gun Arm's clip size drastically increased. Allows you to fire a much larger number of shots before requiring a quick recharge/reload.
+ Shield Arm absorbs a larger variety of shots. Also does more damage when maxed out.
+ Buster Cannon damage slightly increased.
+ Aqua Blaster does no damage to reaverbots, but features a pushback effect. Smaller reaverbots can be moved rather easily, while larger ones either move with more pressure or remain stagnant. Also has the ability to negate fire-based attacks.
So with all this stated, what would your changelist look like?
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Post by HF on Aug 20, 2013 20:09:28 GMT -5
Like a couple of old drawings from a few years ago, I would like to see more incentive to use the stylish but impractical Blade/Shield weapons by combining them into a single weapon. Using the Blade is pretty standard: up to 3 combos at full rapid upgrade, or even control how the blade is swung a la ZanDatsu, giving you more flexibility when using it against a swarm of enemies, or just to attack a single target. Several options for the Shield: Auto Guard function when standing still against incoming projectiles, and a stronger shield activated when pressing Down-Up quickly (similar to Gundam VS Series). Of course, it can lead to counter attacks such as shield-cancelling and attacking the opponent right away, making this mechanic similar to a fighting game for players who like getting up close and personal. |
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RyanLEO
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Posts: 415
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Post by RyanLEO on Aug 20, 2013 20:40:13 GMT -5
This should be fun to discuss, I'm strictly talking about a remake though since I still like the originals. I'm not saying these are things that were missing or anything
Both
-Definitely higher quality graphics, the creepy ruins would be better than ever. Higher quality buster & weapons would look awesome too.
-Ability to always carry the drill arm so you don't have to deal with it the whole time you just want to go through a new wall
MML 1
I agree, it's tough to make any changes other than graphics but...
-Make the Hanmuru Doll tougher to beat since you could really just run back and forth and shoot without getting hit
-Have more to do around the old city such as going into the buildings, maybe have a sidequest or two in there.
-Add the ability to customize the support care (pick your own design and colors)
MML 2
-Get rid of Susan as the voice actor so he doesn't have too much of a girlish sound
-Make him look the same as he did in the first
-Different designs for the life gauge and menu, since they looked (in my opinion) too bland and had strange color paterns
-Have an option to visit Kattelox after you beat the game, and have many new side-quests
-Eliminate the water ruins nonsense, it would still slow you down, but not nearly as much and have fewer levels filled with water
-Also have a larger Class-S ruins that doesn't have water and has much more to explore
Will update with any further ideas
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Post by satoh on Aug 20, 2013 21:34:33 GMT -5
Honestly... As far as "new" features go, I'd love to see a model swap option... It would be a New Game + feature, basically allowing you to swap your character model with any other character model in the game. No full conversion stuff where dialogue is changed or anything... just the aesthetic change.
Why? Because it would be hilarious to play Megaman Legends: Junk-Store Man's Revenge, or Teisel Bonne Legends, and such.
Also, I'd like to see both games released as one package, so that the features would be applied to both games.
Higher quality music, but not fancy "re-orchestrated" stuff... the same music, but with a slightly higher sample rate and higher fidelity midi instruments. (Keeping the midi format is important, the game wouldn't feel right if the music was proper orchestral or something like newer remixes...)
The important thing is that the game be re-made, and not re-imagined.
As for other things...
More un-important ruins. Particularly interconnected stuff like in MML1. No changes to the existing stuff, but rather, have a single way that wasn't destructible before, lead to a totally new area, completely unexpectedly.
For MML1, I really can't think of much to change...
For MML2, I'd want the option to run the game with MML1's physics (As and OPTION), to change the health meter back to classic MML1 style(it really just looked better in 1), keeping Trigger's original MML design instead of the weird beanpole thing with a nasty orange POS on his back...
GUI customization for both games... just some color tweaking and texture swapping options really... nothing complicated.
Procedurally generated ruins you can find when you fly around the ocean for a while clicking X because you were sure there was some hidden stuff to find on that silly world map (its huge and has only 4 locations.) ((Procedural mind you, not actually "random." There would of course be rules for the layout, like not putting 18 horokko in the same closet sized room with a Karumuna Bashi and a Sharukurusu))
On top of having more non-plot ruins, have more aesthetic variations on them... keeping the same basic shape of rooms would be fine, but adding something like the caves in MoTB would be a nice way to spice things up without having to design a bunch of really complicated unique stuff.
And every once in a while have a room that looks like it actually does something... even if it doesn't. (Lake Jyun had a control room. It did NOTHING but activate a cutscene... but it's the coolest place in the game, aside from maybe that spot just to the left of Roll's smile.
And finally... more stuff to see on... or IN rather, the moon. I mean its a FRICKEN MOON. It contributes a large part of Terra's gravitational properties it is so big! There MUST be more to it than a few gray rooms and an oddly geometric one-man island.
wait that's not final... there's one more... Inclusion of DASH2:Episode 1 and 5 Island Adventure missions...they were pretty small so that shouldn't be hard.
As for the 'physics options' it wouldn't be the first time a game has done it, MGS2 changed some gameplay aspects based on user preference in this manner, and since the engine would have to be rebuilt even if the physics were identical, the game could be built to accept multiple values for physics parameters... (Sonic Generations read all of its physics info like speed acceleration, jump height, strength, etc from a text document buried in an archive file... and while it didn't do perfectly in recapturing the feel of earlier games, people have tweaked those files to fix it, so there's proof of concept)
Overall, the only new things I really want to see are aesthetic or simply things that increase the amount of exploratory experience... nothing about the games themselves need changing.
Even just having all the games on one glorious disc with consistent graphics throughout would be awesome really...
*Notes to self to just remake those games if he ever finishes his MML engine prototype
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Post by Dashe on Aug 20, 2013 22:14:03 GMT -5
I'm actually digging most of Buster's suggestions, especially the ones regarding Nino and the mayor's quiz.
Definitely better graphics all around. I'd like that little jump you get when you skate off of a ledge in Legends 2 apply in Legends 1, but I like Legends 1's normal jump physics better. I'd also like to be able to shoot while skating. Maybe just buff up the skating mechanic all around.
I'd want all of MML1 to remain pretty much the same, except with some extra sidequests and maybe a bonus dungeon. I'd also like to explore the power plant and YAG center and that unreachable ledge in the intro ruin, and have a different voice actress play Ira. New Game Plus would be pretty swell, too.
I'd also want the ability to take two special weapons with you in a dungeon, allowing you to switch in the start menu the way you can switch between the lifter and your assigned weapon in MML2. Have the lifter as a third option in Legends 2. That way the drillable walls in Nino and the cracked tile in Clozer won't force you into being locked into just the one weapon.
And this is probably just me, but I wouldn't mind being able to actually run up and talk to Teisel and Tron in the room down in the Main Gate where Juno was awakened, should you decide to return to that room after running off. After the cutscene they just vanish, which is weird.
For Legends 2, I'd like the optional side ruins to have their own original music (since they currently rip off the Lake Jyun theme) and a unique look to them, more optional side ruins, and I actually would prefer it if they cut the four forced boss rematches at the end on Elysium altogether. Replace it with one difficult, unique boss. As it is, dealing with those four again just feels like a lazy callback to other Mega Man games and artificial padding. There's no real other reason why you'd need to deal with carbon copies of the same four bosses you already beat, so why bother?
More expansive towns and a better opportunity to get to know the townspeople on the various islands in Legends 2 would be nice, too. Generally that game was really short on sidequests and the townspeople were pretty lackluster. And definitely less expensive stuff--maybe make the parts harder to find instead of making you grind for Zenny. Or like Buster said, make the AI harder to beat.
I'd also like to replace Susan Roman as Mega Man with myself, because I can pull it off.
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Post by satoh on Aug 22, 2013 11:34:04 GMT -5
If anything, I want more areas to explore in both games. Ktox Island looks far bigger than what we get... in the second game, flying around using the Flutter like the sailing parts in Wind Waker would do the job. Aside from the higher resolution graphics (something like MML3 was supposed to be), I wouldn't mind to have completely new physics running under both games. Maybe more interaction with the NPCs in both games. As for gameplay changes, extended combat would be definitely nice. Pull some moves from Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, that one had a very smooth Volnutt. Making the combat more skill based, with better enemy AI would really match the already creepy ruins. Nothing comes to mind as the games are quite good as they are. 5-Island DLC maybe?  new physics engines are always worse than the old ones, because they never work the same. What worked in one will feel sloppy in another. For example, all of the Genesis/Megadrive era Sonic games used one core engine, with tweaks here or there to support new gimmicks and and such... but most importantly the movement handling was the same. A lot of the raw numbers were transferred largely accurately to Sonic Adventure, but after that game they started making a new engine or using new physical values for each game... and even when they tried to accurately recapture those two eras of the franchise, with a modern engine, after supposedly tweaking for a long time, they ended up with Sonic Generations... which didn't suck, but was nothing like what they were trying to copy. There's also things like dash shooting in MML2 that saved my ass any number of times... Tapping forward while shooting to shoot faster. It is entirely unintended behavior, and would not be something that survived into a remake, just like Trigger's brief loss of momentum after landing a jump in MML1. Both of those things are things a CHERISH about their respective engines, and both are glitches due to bad programming. So you can see why I am firmly against a new engine, especially if it was an ACTUAL physics engine, rather than something built from the ground up. (Physics simulations are complicated, slow, heavy, and boring to boot, really not a good idea for this type of game) Why DLC? Games don't need DLC. DLC is just a way of milking more money for content that should have been standard 98% of the time. The way I see it, if it can be made with the stock components of the engine and resourses, with maybe one model or texture that are new, it should not be considered "new content," because it is literally a rehashing of old content. Just like LOZ:Master Quest is not a new compared to Ocarina of Time. They're the same exact game, one is just 'hard mode,' that you have to pay extra for. but this isn't a topic about business models and why DLC was a bad idea for the player from the very start, so I'll stop. |
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Post by satoh on Aug 22, 2013 13:04:30 GMT -5
satohYou certainly don't have to tell me about Sonic games. Though the two are very different in style. Sonic used pinball physics while Mega Man Legends is "generic TPS with some jumping". Here's the fundamental point where your argument falls flat for me. There is nothing "generic" in TPS with jumping. Frankly I've yet to play a game since 2005 that had jumping physics that felt right, (save for a few retro indie games). The problem is that you simply cannot 'slap together' any part of the engine and expect it to be good. I am very adamant about this and you will not sway me on this. MML's movement is on a whole different level in terms of responsiveness, than any of the other games in the Megaman franchise group. And if you think about how much Megeman classic players rely on the physics in those games for their gameplay experience...you might grasp the gravitas of that comment. For a more direct example, look at MML2. The physics were very different in it from MML1. Very. Different. In fact I hated them with a passion. Running while locked on was nice, but everything else made me throw my controller in rage. I could not get a single jump to go where I wanted it, nor any landing stop where it should. I wasn't doing anything wrong mind you, the engine was simply different. The entire game felt like Trigger was sliding around on soapy glass, a problem its predecessor didn't have. In fact MML1 was a gem of incredible quality. (It wasn't incredible for its time, but in hindsight, in comparison to modern games I've played, it was amazingly good.) Frankly, if you think platforming can ever be "generic" you have taken the first step toward failing at making a platforming game. Generic, when it comes to platforming, means bad. There is no gray area for interpretation. Generic platforming physics will. and do. always. suck. hard. To put it another way... Platforming in MML is no less important than it is in Sonic. In Sonic it is (or was, and should be now but isn't anymore) the main focus of the game so you would think that everything else could be generic right... of course not. Generic is a terrible idea plain and simple, and especially when it comes to movement. Player input should always be perfect. Anything less than perfect performance for player input, is a strike against a game. Yes even in RPGs where player input is arbitrary, there are games that "feel good" to run around in, and games that "are dreadful" to take a single step in... The player interface is of paramount importance, above plot, above aesthetic, above difficulty. If a game is actually pleasant to -play- it will be played. This is coming from a person who really plays games for the plot and characters. If MML remake had 'generic' physics, I would ragequit the laws of physics and causality, and Capcom would be destroyed, causing me to be the destroyer, in that order. I mean that. Quite seriously. Physics would hold no quarter with me. |
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Post by Dashe on Aug 22, 2013 18:51:58 GMT -5
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Post by satoh on Aug 22, 2013 19:36:25 GMT -5
And now we know why capcom and Inafune-san had tension... But since I haven't held a controller in my hands and moved Barret around, I can't tell you whether that engine is any good or not... nor have I played other games using it... The only way I can simply explain why the movement mechanic is so important to me is like this: In MML I felt like I was running around and climbing on things and such... In MML I felt like I was running around and someone was making Trigger jump... In generally most modern games I feel like I'm holding a controller that in turn causes a thing on a screen to swim around in molasses, and occasionally become breifly unrooted from the ground only to be suddenly in contact with it again. Its all about feedback and responsiveness. Frankly the way modern games have lead in and out animations for every action and half second acceleration and deceleration... makes me feel extremely disconnected from the game. MML's engine was great because it was simple, and unrealistic. Acceleration and deceleration didn't exist, and it was perfectly fine because they really don't need to exist for individual characters in this type of game. Controls can feel loose, spongy, stiff, slow, sloppy, inconsistent... and they usually seem to when a proper amount of refining isn't given to the movement system... The problem being, no one ever puts forth that effort these days. The effort is always focused on graphics, gimmicks, and... *sigh* true story: filling up a third of the game's disk space with high resolution pictures of the boss's face because he told you to, even though you will never see it. (Again, this is a true story). While I doubt capcom would pull that last one on us, I have no doubt that they would get lazy and use default values for the movement engine 'because it was already there.' (its a trade secret for saving money and time!) EDIT: and I should pull out of this topic before anyone else replies, because this is not something that will end if I don't leave. It can only become gradually more heated. |
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Post by HF on Aug 22, 2013 19:54:08 GMT -5
While I doubt capcom would pull that last one on us, I have no doubt that they would get lazy and use default values for the movement engine 'because it was already there.' (its a trade secret for saving money and time!) As joked about several times, I want to throw money* at KONMAI so that they would do have a shot at it instead. * Mental preparation required that they would throw it back at me, or worse?
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