Z-Mania
Miitan
Megaman Legends 3 Production Re-Initialization program is now running, under Fan Section Ordinances.
Posts: 97
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Post by Z-Mania on Nov 30, 2011 3:42:58 GMT -5
Ok so I have a few issues I would like to outline about the forums, ill start with the one I feel most major, because its a direct technicality issue.
1) I do not believe users should be recieving infractions because of double posts. All most all forums today are coded to merge double posts. Double posting is a thing of the past and users should not be receiving infractions for it is the responsibility of the staff on thier respective forums to keep them up-to-date.
On a sympathetic note, the madam Dashe who runs this site more than has her hands full, I do understand that. But I would like to at least emphasize that users shouldn't be receiving infractions for this matter. I for one, have become used to double posting because of these features, so it never occured to me that the forum didnt have this feature. I am now aware this is the case and have been avoiding double posting in ordinance. I still see this as an outdated technical flaw in the forums, and it would be a minor and unbothering issue if users were not receiving infractions for something they honestly shouldn't be in 2011.
2) I think the rules could use some constructive improvements, most forums directly outline the implications of each rule aswell as the infraction system. How many infractions for example you get banned, what offences will give you what.. etc
3) I have also never once been on a forum where spelling was turned into a rule. I mean, encouraging users to go over their posts is wonderful, but it should be noted many people may not speak english as thier native language, putting them at a disadvantage as it is. I think this might have been partly outlined in the rules, but it was also said that theres a problem if improvement is not seen. I mean, within reason, if people are being lazy, thats one thing, but if they cant speak english thats different. I know a guy who is blind, and the way he types/writes is very annoying and he sounds like a hormonal jr. high kid, but hes much the opposite in reality, you would NEVER guess he was the same person after hearing that. lmao. he simply cant communicate as effectively as a result of having a lifetime difficulty with learning and comprehending the english language. He really just doesnt understand how he sounds, especially when much of our modern english language is based so heavily on contexts and tones of voice. What a word means to us thanks to these things, it doesnt mean to him and he writes things the best he can comprehending only thier most basic meanings. He doesnt actually understand how hes being rude, and it certaintly isn't his fault.
To lighten this up a bit, massive smiles =DDD Thanks for taking the time Dashe <3
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Post by Chiz on Nov 30, 2011 10:36:28 GMT -5
Okay, I'll try to tackle these. 1) I do not believe users should be recieving infractions because of double posts. All most all forums today are coded to merge double posts. Double posting is a thing of the past and users should not be receiving infractions for it is the responsibility of the staff on thier respective forums to keep them up-to-date. Proboards literally does not have this feature, at all. The forum software is superbad and has features that even other free forum hosts have as standard. There is nothing we can do about this because the amount of addon scripts and hacking we'd need to do to even prevent someone from making a 2nd post (let alone auto-merging them) is so far beyond anyone here, including myself. And while this is going to come off as incredibly proud and boastful, and I don't mean it like that, I believe I'm part of the upper 5% of technically-minded members of MMLS. I've written at least 2/3rds of the add-on scripts/hacks for this forum that are currently in place. Implementing something like blocking/merging concurrent posts is far beyond my means, both in skill and in what I can access of the forum software.On a sympathetic note, the madam Dashe who runs this site more than has her hands full, I do understand that. But I would like to at least emphasize that users shouldn't be receiving infractions for this matter. I for one, have become used to double posting because of these features, so it never occured to me that the forum didnt have this feature. I am now aware this is the case and have been avoiding double posting in ordinance. I still see this as an outdated technical flaw in the forums, and it would be a minor and unbothering issue if users were not receiving infractions for something they honestly shouldn't be in 2011. You're absolutely right - we shouldn't have to warn people for double posts, not only because of technical measures that should exist, that never will, but also because of general user reading comprehension. Double posting is clearly pointed out in our rule thread as something that's forbidden in 9 out of 10 cases, but it still occurs. I'd be willing to guess that a large proportion of users' first time bothering to read the rules is after they've been warned for an infraction. 2) I think the rules could use some constructive improvements, most forums directly outline the implications of each rule aswell as the infraction system. How many infractions for example you get banned, what offences will give you what.. etc There's no hard-set number or value or weight for any particular infraction. People have been banned after 1 infraction. People are still around after 20. We prefer to evaluate each person's behaviour on a case-by-case basis, instead of a rigid and blind-to-circumstance demerit point system or warn percentage system, etc. If you are being malicious, or you show blatant disregard to the rule system, you get fast-tracked for a ban. If you make innocent mistakes, infrequent mistakes, or generally try to do well by the system we have (despite any personal opinions on the validity of it), they carry less weight. 3) I have also never once been on a forum where spelling was turned into a rule. I mean, encouraging users to go over their posts is wonderful, but it should be noted many people may not speak english as thier native language, putting them at a disadvantage as it is. Again, it's reading comprehension. We're an English-only forum; there is no French section, no Japanese section, no German section, or what have you. We do not demand that English is your primary language, and many of our members are ESL, but we do demand that you are versed in English enough to communicate clearly in it. We also try to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the internet average, which is embarrassingly low. Lastly, we will not warn you for making a typo or two, as it happens to everyone, and we do actually make attempts at being fair. I know a guy who is blind, and the way he types/writes is very annoying and he sounds like a hormonal jr. high kid, but hes much the opposite in reality, you would NEVER guess he was the same person after hearing that. lmao. he simply cant communicate as effectively as a result of having a lifetime difficulty with learning and comprehending the english language. Not to take away from his plight, but I don't see a need to adapt our rules for highly unlikely edge cases, such as a fully blind gamer. If the scenario does come up, we will handle it as per response to #2 - without a rigid, uncaring point system, and with appropriate tolerances where needed. Thanks for taking the time Dashe <3 Please note, Dashe is not alone in her job; there are multiple admin and mods on call.
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Z-Mania
Miitan
Megaman Legends 3 Production Re-Initialization program is now running, under Fan Section Ordinances.
Posts: 97
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Post by Z-Mania on Dec 1, 2011 22:45:55 GMT -5
Thanks for your reply. First of all, im an ediot, hes not blind, hes def, lmfao. Hopefully that makes a bit more sense now... As for the rest of it, I see your point. I still think a point system should be in place within reason, simply because I feel it allows too much staff leaniency. I don't believe staff should have that much power that they can make all the decisions based on how they "feel" about something. The idea of a systematic one is to help keep staff from banning people without legitimate reasons. But, I understand also that there needs to be punishment given in situations that actually need it.. I personally would create a redesigned system that doesnt allow staff to give infractions/bans/etc. You can tell how much I trust people, lol. As for the double posting, thats sucks ass but hey what can you do right? Maybe if I have time in four years ill write one myself. who knows.
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Post by Chiz on Dec 2, 2011 3:59:38 GMT -5
I still think a point system should be in place within reason, simply because I feel it allows too much staff leaniency. I don't believe staff should have that much power that they can make all the decisions based on how they "feel" about something. The idea of a systematic one is to help keep staff from banning people without legitimate reasons. I can appreciate that you want a system with checks and balances, and that you believe a system where, even excluding unique circumstances, you can see exactly what will get you banned, what will get you close to being banned, what will get you warned, etc. I personally think, however, that such a system will do more harm than good; troublemakers will carefully limbo under the ban threshold while still being a pain in the ass to everyone, and honest members who make mistakes will cross the threshold and our hand will be forced into punishing them when we might not want to. Doing otherwise could justifyably bring on claims of favouritism and bias. Lastly, I don't think we've ever been accused of leniency. Ever. Only malevolant dictatorship and totalitarianism. I think Godwin's been invoked a few times, too. We have jokes about us operating in this way, but we are trying to be fair and permissive. Obviously it's no democracy, but, at least for me (because I can't speak for the rest of the team), I try to give the benefit of any doubts. I may fail - I'm human - but I try.
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Hermit Crab
Fritto
HELLO WOULD YOU LIKE TO ENTER MY CONCH
Posts: 65
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Post by Hermit Crab on Dec 2, 2011 12:02:13 GMT -5
Good suggestions. I've seen the "point" system being used before, and i know it works.
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Post by HF on Dec 2, 2011 12:08:51 GMT -5
Good suggestions. I've seen the "point" system being used before, and i know it works. Considering EChiz's issues raised about a publicized point system or similar method of quantifying a user's breaching of forum authority, what exactly do you mean by 'it works'?
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Hermit Crab
Fritto
HELLO WOULD YOU LIKE TO ENTER MY CONCH
Posts: 65
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Post by Hermit Crab on Dec 2, 2011 12:20:42 GMT -5
It works because it does, simple as that. I did read Chiz's post, but i mainly disagree with the concept of a system where the feelings and moods of the peopel in charge are involved, because then all you need is one person with authority having a bad day, feeling in a bad mood, or just being downright psychotic to screw you over. (Not saying people here are like that so plz don't ban me. :x)
I think a system that merges both points and feelings would be quite a good thing.
Like in this example, points can be used to have a record of the wrongdoings of somebody, but when things like this happen, you can involve your feelings by cutting some slack to the member that has been good, and banning the one that hasn't been good. You are respecting a point system while at the same time closing loopholes.
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Post by HF on Dec 2, 2011 13:00:21 GMT -5
It works because it does, simple as that. I did read Chiz's post, but i mainly disagree with the concept of a system where the feelings and moods of the peopel in charge are involved, because then all you need is one person with authority having a bad day, feeling in a bad mood, or just being downright psychotic to screw you over. (Not saying people here are like that so plz don't ban me. :x) I think a system that merges both points and feelings would be quite a good thing. And what shall stop these moderators from outright banning offenders on a whim? (Numerical system or not) I am unable to visualize how a quantified system would improve the community as a whole, especially if it is a publicized one; so former offenders from (possibly) years back will have to bear the mark of a being dubious despite having resolved themselves (and let's face it; you cannot announce such an achievement without contradicting yourself, nor is there any way to prove it but over a long period of time)? Repeat offenders of a particular rule, fine as they have yet to learn the way things are here. But quantifying various cases as a single measure of integrity will lead to unnecessary discussion and debate. I am sure most of us do not want politics, and what we really want is things to do with DASH/Legends. (@ MMLS: I believe that this is the real goal of the community established here, for better or worse. Is the impression I have gotten from my year here a mistake?) The example you pointed out contradicts your argument; a record of wrongdoings is not limited to slapping a bunch of numbers on it. There should be no problem with keeping a record of past issues with any member as-is; I believe the members are better off with the choice to better himself or herself, and not forced to 'act' just to appease the authorities with the fear of being barred from posting (or worse). As much as I can find respite in playing 'detective', I personally believe that the population of MMLS does not need a simplification method for judging an individual member's integrity, and can be dealt with as a case-by-case situation.
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Post by Chiz on Dec 2, 2011 13:50:22 GMT -5
I am sure most of us do not want politics, and what we really want is things to do with DASH/Legends. (@ MMLS: I believe that this is the real goal of the community established here, for better or worse. Is the impression I have gotten from my year here a mistake?) Politics are usually a bad thing, but we do welcome commentary on our system, like this thread. MLT and I had a good long run of verbose debates on the vagarities of this and that when we were both mods - I miss this. However, on the whole, I think excessive politicial debate and arguments could devolve into general unhappiness for all, so there's a fine line between where it's welcomed and where it's not. This line is most certainly NOT drawn to effect an "It's okay to agree with us, but it's not okay to disagree with us" scenario, however. Also, as a side note, you've been here for 3 years, HF, not 1. Time flies, eh? a record of wrongdoings is not limited to slapping a bunch of numbers on it. There should be no problem with keeping a record of past issues with any member as-is; I believe the members are better off with the choice to better himself or herself, and not forced to 'act' just to appease the authorities with the fear of being barred from posting (or worse). Very much this. In fact, we have "rap sheets", if you will, going back to 2006 - anyone who's done something wrong since then, and has been called out on it by us (aka received a warning) has an entry for it in said record. We also tend to ignore older entries, giving them minimal weight in most circumstances. To everyone, it's not policy, but I personally don't have anything against sharing a person's record with said person, so if you're curious and want to see yours, just PM me. It'll probably include things you've been pardoned for or excused from, so don't get offended by it. the population of MMLS does not need a simplification method for judging an individual member's integrity, and can be dealt with as a case-by-case situation. On the whole, the members here are well-behaved by any metric and only have the occasional incident. Outside of general clean-up, welcoming people, and running the occasional contest and event, there's not much to moderation here. Simplification wouldn't benefit us very much 'cept in the most active of times, which are few and far between. We're a modest community with only about 50 even occasionally active members at any given time*, so there's not that much need for it. * - yes, I'm sure there would be hundreds if not thousands of members if we only implemented this change or that change. That's irrelevant for this in particular.
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Post by HF on Dec 3, 2011 6:27:37 GMT -5
Politics are usually a bad thing, but we do welcome commentary on our system, like this thread. MLT and I had a good long run of verbose debates on the vagarities of this and that when we were both mods - I miss this. However, on the whole, I think excessive politicial debate and arguments could devolve into general unhappiness for all, so there's a fine line between where it's welcomed and where it's not. This line is most certainly NOT drawn to effect an "It's okay to agree with us, but it's not okay to disagree with us" scenario, however. I can imagine a situation if too many people start taking part in it, with a bad mix of poorly applied buzzwords and melodrama. In one word: 'unpleasant'. Also, as a side note, you've been here for 3 years, HF, not 1. Time flies, eh? That's when I registered*, but I was thinking more on "I have only started regularing MMLS sometime around last year's Secret Santa event, and somehow I started tagging along up to now and for who-knows how much longer". * And back then, it was just me seeking a quick answer when I came across this site by chance. And then I just sort of 'appeared'; I can't remember anything else.Very much this. In fact, we have "rap sheets", if you will, going back to 2006 - anyone who's done something wrong since then, and has been called out on it by us (aka received a warning) has an entry for it in said record. We also tend to ignore older entries, giving them minimal weight in most circumstances. To everyone, it's not policy, but I personally don't have anything against sharing a person's record with said person, so if you're curious and want to see yours, just PM me. It'll probably include things you've been pardoned for or excused from, so don't get offended by it. Hah... With such a thing, I can now understand why you and the staff get (wrongfully) called out as totalitarians and dictators, even if past offenses hold little weight (considering how minor they are by nature). On the whole, the members here are well-behaved by any metric and only have the occasional incident. Outside of general clean-up, welcoming people, and running the occasional contest and event, there's not much to moderation here. Simplification wouldn't benefit us very much 'cept in the most active of times, which are few and far between. We're a modest community with only about 50 even occasionally active members at any given time, so there's not that much need for it. Well this direct Q&A 'session' has taught me a bit more about how things are run on MMLS which I had little idea of. Thankful for it, I am.
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SketchMan3
Poh
That's "SketchMan3". Capital S, capital M and the number 3. It's official (nicknames are ok, though)
Posts: 464
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Post by SketchMan3 on Dec 14, 2011 20:09:11 GMT -5
IMO, things are just fine as they are.
Instead of double posting, hit the "Modify" button. That's why it's there.
I haven't been here that long or that often, but the current rule enforcement system seems to be working well. This place has been around since way back when, after all.
Spelling as a rule = win. I think the staff is capable of handling the enforcement of said rule fairly enough to avoid much conflict.
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Qwertman
Habarool
Work work work...
Posts: 736
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Post by Qwertman on Dec 31, 2011 0:59:20 GMT -5
Point systems are better for larger communities. Here, the admins really do CARE about us as peers, we're not just usernames and numbers to them. If Dashe has a bad hair day (oh dear god) and decides to take it out on us, well, that's what "sorry" is for.
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Post by Chaotic Chao on Dec 31, 2011 1:18:38 GMT -5
Instead of double posting, hit the "Modify" button. That's why it's there. If this doesn't make enough sense, I don't know what does. Although I'm not sure what to do in case of quotes... I think the forum is just fine the way it is. I just hope the 5-words-per-post rule is the most lenient, since it seems to be the easiest to break. Also, the point system doesn't sound like it will work well at all to me.
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