Critical Analysis: Nino Ruins and Crappy Level Design

[Buster Cannon]

*Critical Analysis is a new series that I'm starting which covers different issues encountered in the MML games.  This'll mostly cover gameplay-related stuff.

It's a nice chill evening and I'm sitting here enjoying a playthrough of Megaman Legends 2.  I clear the Parabola defense mission, the ruins are opened, and...I feel like turning the game off now.  What is it exactly about Nino ruins that makes me dread playing through it?

The main reason for this is the level design that Nino Ruins utilizes.  What sets Nino apart from other ruins (in both games) is that it's not only linear, but lengthy and reptitive.  Nino Ruins consists of five floors, three of which need to be explored both submerged and dry to collect everything.  To make matters worse Data only appears at the very end of the ruin, essentially giving the player the message that they have to loot the entire place in one sitting.  That's asking a lot.  What also makes Nino painstaking is the fact that there's only one "right" weapon to clear it with: the Drill Arm.  Sure you can go through it with any other weapon and be fine, but that only means that a return trip is in order if you plan to collect everything.  Of course, the underwater slowdown is a factor, but that's more of a PSX issue than a design flaw.

Now let's compare this to say, Manda Island's ruins.  What I like about Manda is that the ruin is cut up into segments.  Once you go through the initial route that opens the red door and the first Bola fight, you're given the option of a breather to save or change weapons.  You get a similar break after the red route and the second Bola fight.  At that point you have the option to head up to the top floor and finish if need be.  Saul Kada employs a similar strategy where you go after the bottom floor first and deal with the Bonnes later.  They even had the courtesy to place Data in front of Wojigairon's room!  Calinca has the barrier keys which allow you to shortcut your way to the lower floor once you get far enough.

At this point you may be wondering, "What about the MML1 ruins? Those were very straightforward!".  While Cardon, Lake Jyun, and Clozer Woods' ruins were built around the concept of doing it all at once, it's worth noting that they're considerably shorter than Nino Ruins, and the design of the levels is flexible that you can bring whatever weapon you want without feeling like you need to backtrack (with the rare exception of Clozer Woods' dirt wall).  MML1's ruins are also interconnected, driving home the theme of scope that you feel when you finally obtain the Drill Arm later on.  Despite all the digging you do in MML1, it feels more like raw exploration than the repetition you start to feel with Nino (even more so when you have to backtrack after the first Klaymoor fight).

Don't get me wrong, Nino Ruins has plenty of good points, especially in the area of aesthetics.  Reaverbots having different attacks/properties underwater was nice to see, the room with the giant reaverbot on the fourth floor is one of the most beautiful things I've seen in a Megaman game, and the music really drove home the atmosphere.  In the area of level design though, I just felt that this particular segment of MML2 hasn't aged quite well.

~Buster Cannon

P.S. If there's any Legends-related topics that you'd like me to cover, feel free to let me know!

[ZEROrevive]

I remember doing this place for the first time. At first, I thought "Oh, wow...water based dungeon? This should be refreshing!"

...This quickly led into me saying "I understand the water tampering and all but....this is beginning to drag".

And so, it did. Cue in a game freeze and the fact that I didn't get the chance to talk to data at any point, replaying again halfway, going all the way BACK just to talk to data outside to make sure I didn't lose much progress incase of any in-game deaths...

Can I kindly say that this is MML's version of the dreaded "Water Temple"? I think that sums it up about right.

P.S. X2: You mentioned about how "MML1's ruins are also interconnected"...has that ever been discussed in detail? I always was amazed by the exploring aspect of that gimmick. It felt more connected than what MML2 managed, and its never escaped my mind. Not sure how that could be padded out into a discussion but...just a thought.

[Buster Cannon]

Aug 6, 2013 20:53:09 GMT -5 ZEROrevive said:

P.S. X2: You mentioned about how "MML1's ruins are also interconnected"...has that ever been discussed in detail? I always was amazed by the exploring aspect of that gimmick. It felt more connected than what MML2 managed, and its never escaped my mind. Not sure how that could be padded out into a discussion but...just a thought.

I could definitely do a short write-up on it somewhere down the line.  MML1's interconnected ruins are one of the main factors that made Kattelox island feel so...'complete', along with stuff like getting to know the islanders and general exploration.  Another one of the things that MML2 kinda lost with the multiple islands shtick.

[ZEROrevive]

"Another one of the things that MML2 kinda lost with the multiple islands shtick."


Thats pretty much my biggest disappointment with MML2, summed up in a nutshell.

I will look forward to that little write up, if it see's the light of day. *nod*




...Also going to add in regards to Nino ruins. I got annoyed with the room with the large drop, which requires you to do some platforming in the form of a sort of "ladder" (I use that term vaguely) made up of platforms, in order to get back out.

It was one, flying jump after another. And to be honest, trigger isn't the absolute best when it comes to precise platforming. Especially when climbing his way up. Its that floaty jump...thing (And i don't mean in the water).

[Buster Cannon]

Aug 6, 2013 23:21:31 GMT -5 ZEROrevive said:

...Also going to add in regards to Nino ruins. I got annoyed with the room with the large drop, which requires you to do some platforming in the form of a sort of "ladder" (I use that term vaguely) made up of platforms, in order to get back out.

It was one, flying jump after another. And to be honest, trigger isn't the absolute best when it comes to precise platforming. Especially when climbing his way up. Its that floaty jump...thing (And i don't mean in the water).

You mean these?  Yeah, I hated climbing those things, and they were even more painstaking underwater.

[ZEROrevive]

"You mean these?"

Yes, those...and your right with the in-water climb. Not sure why they didn't go with an elevator lift there...It's not like those "steps" serve any purpose other than to waste your time. Especially if your not very used to MML physics of jumping.

Now that I think of it, the entire ruin is of full of time wasters. Artificial time wasters, that is. And thats never a good thing in most cases.

[RyanLEO]

I remember those horrific ruins. The game would be much shorter without them, it was almost like they create it for rage purposes. The jetskates weren't that helpful either so either way you went through like a snail.

There were also the class s ruins that had it. After I got the S license I thought it would be a lot bigger and interesting. Instead there was that disappointing ****ing water again. Of course I still enjoyed the classic ruins music

[satoh]

There's a key difference between MML and MML2's jumping physics that would have made this entire ruin much more fun...
In MML when you jump, while moving, the instant you land, there is a brief
stop...

in your forward motion, in MML2, Trigger just keeps sliding along like his shoes are made of grease.
While it was likely unintended behavior in the first game, I LIKED it.

Had there been this brief little choke in MML2, we would not have found ourselves rocketing off the platforms at every turn.
(I should also point out that, under water, it is nearly impossible to sustain forward motion without constant propulsion, so forward jumps are impossible realistically anyway, much less super floaty ones)

In the end I feel MML's jump physics were far better than MML2's and this is just one of the reasons.

I'll also say that the Nino ruins are quite possibly the least interesting to look at. Sure in MML the ruins were all kind of drab... but they were still interesting Nino is just square rooms with one single texture plastered across the lot of them. There were no interesting control rooms like in Lake Jyun, or unique types of wall showing the difference between the flooded areas and the dry ones... (also Jyun)
In fact Nino isn't even as interesting to look at as the other ruins in its own game, (which I also felt were kind of out of touch with MML1).

Dreaded Water Temple of MML2? Yes. This is it. I hate going in there, I hate the layout, I hate how long I'm stuck there, and I can't find a reason for any of the stuff in there to be how it was...

Why was it flooded? Obviously it served some purpose because they had manual water level control... but the ruin seems functionless other than being something to get in your way.
I'd settle with "its a fortress for the Key" if it wasn't so miserably equipped to be a fortress.

That really sums up the levels in this game altogether actually... In MML, you never really knew what the heck any ruin was there for... but it certainly seemed like they had a purpose.

A final note... Refractors. You never find one in any of the main ruins. They should have been there even if they weren't the goal. Don't large refractors power these places or something? Why stick them in completely unconnected side ruins?

[ZEROrevive]

Aug 7, 2013 15:38:38 GMT -5 satoh said:

There's a key difference between MML and MML2's jumping physics that would have made this entire ruin much more fun...
In MML when you jump, while moving, the instant you land, there is a brief
stop...

in your forward motion, in MML2, Trigger just keeps sliding along like his shoes are made of grease.
While it was likely unintended behavior in the first game, I LIKED it.

Mind me saying, but no-freaking-wonder why I felt so awkward doing that segment. I was so used to the "land-and-stop" animation MML does.

And just to add to the fire, theres also this part which requires platforming...while moving.



Goodnight Irene.

[Buster Cannon]

Aug 7, 2013 4:14:04 GMT -5 ZEROrevive said:

Now that I think of it, the entire ruin is of full of time wasters. Artificial time wasters, that is. And thats never a good thing in most cases.

If anything else the whole deal with you having to climb back to the surface of a 5-floor ruin was way over the top.  In MML1 and the sub-ruins in MML2, you typically climb back out after you've collected what you needed.  Nino ruins on the other hand uses this as a cheap plot device, where you meet up with Klaymoor for a second battle.  Shoot, if you lose said battle (unlikely with the Drill Arm, but still) you get to start over from the bottom before the first battle!  It's just another way that Nino really seems to stretch itself in terms of length.

@ satoh

You know, I never really gave the jump physics much thought until you brought that up.  I do think that MML2's jump physics were probably meant to give the player better aerial mobility (certainly makes circling even easier), but the fact that his momentum carries into his landing now does have that extra side-effect of slipperiness.  Kinda interesting that MML1 had faster run speed if you went diagonally, so maybe they figured giving him active momentum would make up for the speed loss.

While the elemental ruins essentially broke the mold of ruin design that was seen in MML1, it kinda made sense.  The 4 main ruins are there solely for the purpose of holding the keys to the Carbon Re-initialization Program.  They're expected to be a little special in a sense.  Really that's why I'd expect there to be a lack of refractors in them as well.  I do agree with Nino being a little more drab than the others in the game; aside from the room with Mandomantal there really isn't too much that catches your eye.  I felt like Saul Kada and Calinca pulled off the 'elemental' feature a little better.  Elysium of course is a special case being an entirely different planet.  Likewise the sub-ruins scattered throughout the rest of the world follow the same pattern as MML1's designs, minus the inter-connected bit.

Looking at Nino's location I can see the flood design actually making sense.  Ruminoa City is simply build around a ruin that has an entrance in the middle of the ocean.  Maybe with all the seawater coming in constantly they decided to implement a drain system to control it.

[RyanLEO]

Aug 7, 2013 15:47:42 GMT -5 ZEROrevive said:

Aug 7, 2013 15:38:38 GMT -5 satoh said:

There's a key difference between MML and MML2's jumping physics that would have made this entire ruin much more fun...
In MML when you jump, while moving, the instant you land, there is a brief
stop...

in your forward motion, in MML2, Trigger just keeps sliding along like his shoes are made of grease.
While it was likely unintended behavior in the first game, I LIKED it.

Mind me saying, but no-freaking-wonder why I felt so awkward doing that segment. I was so used to the "land-and-stop" animation MML does.

And just to add to the fire, theres also this part which requires platforming...while moving.



Goodnight Irene.

I sorta like this part of the ruins.  It was very open and had a nice design, but I didn't like all the darkness and confusion that it caused.  Plus how you couldn't get to the next area without the aid of a reaverbot.  I just feel like they should have something built to get to the chests instead of relying on the otherwise useless reaver.

[ZEROrevive]

Aug 7, 2013 16:41:53 GMT -5 RyanLEO said:

It was very open and had a nice design, but I didn't like all the darkness and confusion that it caused.  Plus how you couldn't get to the next area without the aid of a reaverbot.  I just feel like they should have something built to get to the chests instead of relying on the otherwise useless reaver.

Its very slow paced...and the rooms practically empty otherwise. Its a neat thing when you first walk in and see. just afterwords...there's little meaning to it. And being someone who likes to check every nook and cranny for stuff, thats a big disappointment.

[Buster Cannon]

Aug 7, 2013 16:41:53 GMT -5 RyanLEO said:

I sorta like this part of the ruins.  It was very open and had a nice design, but I didn't like all the darkness and confusion that it caused.  Plus how you couldn't get to the next area without the aid of a reaverbot.  I just feel like they should have something built to get to the chests instead of relying on the otherwise useless reaver.

It's not that the area was bad, it's just that Megaman's new jump mechanics make it somewhat easy to slide off of Mandomantal when trying to land on him correctly.  I think that particular part of the 4th floor outdid the entirety of Nino ruins in terms of catching that underwater feel with the level design.  Plus I loved how it subtly drove home the point that reaverbots are more defensive in nature.  I do agree that having them place some extra items or other secrets could have given some extra depth to a room that's otherwise huge for no reason.

[Sudo Iwaki X]

It wasn't the best ruin ever, but the music was great and there is a lot of Zenny to be earned a least. 

I can bear some of the slowdowns underwater. 

[John]

I have a question Buster Cannon does the PC version of Megaman Legends 2/Rockman DASH 2 has slowdown like the PSX or is it like the PSP version that has no slowdown?