The Issue not being Addressed is "Why?"

[dram]

So, I was sitting here wondering why MML3 crashed so hard. They had new characters, now toys and a story that more or less had nothing of MML but dropping all the main characters on a bus.

then it hit me, They were everything that was wrong with the game. They were bringing in characters that had nothing to do with the series.

Maybe instead of trying to force the back story of a whole new cast, why not use the characters we have at hand. Tron could be using her Large Suits to build the rocket while Roll puts on the Zero Suit digging up the parts needed. You have the Serve Bots running the Tactical parts. Teisel running the recovery mission (picking up the parts) and Rock working on the other side looking for a teleport or something.

You put some Drama about Tron or Roll looking to back stab the other so they get to MM first while figuring out his back story and you are golden.

BAM whole game right there.

[Mikéy]

The problem with this theory is that maybe the backstory of a whole new cast was actually necessary. The series was already a decade old whenever they announced Legends 3, and a lot of people who have no clue what Legends even is would probably be scratching their heads if they were to start playing it after buying it, provided Capcom was to just jump straight to the point of trying to rescue Megaman. Sure, it has "3" in the name, but the fact that Legends 1 and 2 lack an essential number of ports and that they aren't distributed anymore doesn't help the backstory on how the crew made it to [the moon] and Klickelan.

The Bright Bats would probably represent a general audience, as they meet Roll/Tron for the first time and get to understand the situation of their friend being trapped on a distant moon. In turn, the "audience" can comprehend exactly what's going on before the rescue happens. Heck, some of the backstory can even be explained along the way, and the fans can smile and say "Hey, I remember that!" as it happens. Also, The Bright Bats Cast aren't that bad... I was actually starting to warm up to them before Capcom slapped the big red X on the project.

Eh, regardless... I'm starting to feel old wounds open back up, so I'll just leave it at that. Legends will become whatever Capcom decides it'll become, if they ever decide to open their eyes.

[Mr. Foetus]

Agreeing with Mikey. The Bright Bats are there for the newcomers. They exist so that newcomers can attach themselves to the game easier, instead of having to grab at stuff they don't quite understand. No ne wants to be tossed into a giant universe with no understanding of the world around them. Athough, I think it would be cool if they added a short video describing the story so-far, maybe as an opening movie or something.

I am well aware that I'm speaking about the game in present/future tense instead of past tense. XD

[dram]

They've already had a 20+ Minuet opening. Having Roll narrating a next gen "how we got here" opening Video ending with a "and we will do anything to get him back" wouldn't be to hard. Having Roll suiting up to go digging for the parts of the rocket mixed in and BAM it would pretty much cover what's been going on. Besides it is the end of the trilogy and adding new characters who really have nothing going on about it just seems like bad writing, and at least to me is why the game tanked in the first place.

As for the whole Capcom thing. I'm thinking they are waiting for a mod group to do the work for them, then swoop in and take the credit at the end.

[Dashe]

Actually, I've heard a theory that the dev team failed to reach a deadline on time and, according to their contract, were forced to disband the project. I don't think this theory is very likely, and am firmly in the "it had something to do with the devs not being as insistent with proceeding as Inafune would've been had he not left" camp.

New characters or otherwise, everyone here would've bought that prototype if it had been released. Actually, I like the idea of using new characters as an audience surrogate better than just having Roll and Tron provide recap. It's probably the best way for 'em to get this done, actually. Listening to Roll and Tron just talk about things we already know would be really boring, and if you're new to this, you pop in the game, and you spend the first twenty minutes listening to exposition, you'd probably be bored too.

[dram]

Not really, worked for every Final Final Fantasy except for 7 and 9, All the metal gears and most the halo's. Besides 20 minuets sounds long but 5 or 10 minuets would be plenty to set up. "he saved us and got stranded" cutting in Roll getting geared up plus the last 10 or 15 minuets of the game inter cut and ending with "we will do anything to get him back." Think Kingdom Hearts 2. The Other characters could be used as a foil though.

It would also be Rolls first time actually IN a dig so having them or the servbot helping her would also allow for an expo dump.

AND it would be a better port to Vita instead of Nintendo anyway.

[RyanLEO]

It's been a long time since MML2, so they changed a lot and didn't care as much about fans. We mostly only got to see the prototype, which is where all the new characters were. We never saw megaman himself or many other main characters like you said which I think they should have included some more of in the prototype.

[SketchMan3]

I'm pretty sure Roll went "in" a Dig with Mega Man in MML2.

[RyanLEO]

Yeah she technically did in the first ruin in MML2 even though she didn't do anything except help megaman with his target practice. She wouldn't be very useful in a dig since she has no weapons, but it would be nice if she would have been there so I could change my special weapon instead of being stuck with 1 every time.

[HF]

May 27, 2013 17:46:48 GMT -5 dram said:

Not really, worked for every Final Final Fantasy except for 7 and 9, All the metal gears and most the halo's.

Unlike Capcom, all of your samples' companies at the time of said releases (Square, Konami, Microsoft*) have a top-down internal structure for development, or are backed by subsidiaries (or a parent company) which can take high risk projects (at worst, let alone at best).

Konami is practically a Mega Corp where the brand can be seen almost anywhere, especially in Japan.
And I don't think I need to say anything about Microsoft.

Dashe's theory is plausible due to the difference in Capcom's "Two System" structure, especially due to the sheer sales difference between the Megaman franchise and their actually successful ones (PachiSlot, Monster Hunter, Street Fighter MvC, etc).


*Which owns Bungie, the developers of the Halo Series at the time of its debut

[Mikéy]

May 27, 2013 17:46:48 GMT -5 dram said:

Not really, worked for every Final Final Fantasy except for 7 and 9, All the metal gears and most the halo's. Besides 20 minuets sounds long but 5 or 10 minuets would be plenty to set up. "he saved us and got stranded" cutting in Roll getting geared up plus the last 10 or 15 minuets of the game inter cut and ending with "we will do anything to get him back." Think Kingdom Hearts 2. The Other characters could be used as a foil though.

Just because a certain approach worked with one franchise doesn’t mean it has to be forced onto another. I personally haven’t played a majority of the games you’ve listed outside of KHII, and I must say, KHII actually does a good job utilizing a probable scenario that Capcom was going to pull off. Roxas / Barrett: The new audience. The goal: Go through a few scenarios to understand the game, combat, etc. (Re: 2nd paragraph of my first post)

Is it better than a long-winded cutscene? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the eye of the beholder. Personally, I kinda liked the approach and think that Capcom could’ve easily pulled it off with the Bright Bats. The whole Roxas-thing with KHII was a bit unnerving for replay value, but if playing as Roxas wasn't as horrifyingly drab as playing as Barrett was going to be, I'm sure anybody could overcome and overlook it.

You gotta admit, Barrett’s moves make him look like fun to play as to any general game player; temporarily or otherwise.

May 27, 2013 17:19:22 GMT -5 dram said:

They've already had a 20+ Minuet opening.

Legends 2, right? Funny; that opening cutscene was made back when the series was still full of life. Simple recaps work really well when the games are only a year or two apart, and not a decade. It would've helped if the aforementioned games had fairly recent ports (which I mentioned earlier, also in my first post) so that way, people don’t have to… say… “pirate” the older versions to understand what a mystery-cutscene at the beginning of a long-overdue sequel (Legends 3) would be trying to explain.

But, there haven't been. So there really isn't a relatively fun way to sum everything up in a single cutscene with a "This happened, trust me." without putting newcomers* and fans alike to sleep.

May 27, 2013 17:19:22 GMT -5 dram said:

Besides it is the end of the trilogy and adding new characters who really have nothing going on about it just seems like bad writing, and at least to me is why the game tanked in the first place.

Trilogy? Whoever said Legends was going to just be a trilogy? I’m sure there’s more than enough potential backbone in the story for it to go further. Heck, there’s already three games to its name. That would mean…

Anyways, I don’t really see what was wrong with Capcom’s approach this time. Introducing new faces to help in achieving the goal of rescuing Megaman is far from bad writing; if anything, it gives Legends 3 the extra dose of light-heartedness that Legends 2 so desperately lacked. Think about it, would it really make sense if Klickelan was inhabited by nameless and unhelpful people who wouldn't lift a finger to help someone in need? Surely not. It would also open up a whole plethora of opportunities for various side-quests and side-content concerning each Bright Bats member.

Simply put, I doubt that The Bright Bats were the reason that Legends 3 got canned. It’s pretty unfair that a gang with such colorful personalities and individual backgrounds could even be considered as the cause; in favor of a boring filler cutscene, anyways. We could throw opinions back and forth all day long, but it wouldn’t change the fact that a small group of characters being the reason for a whole game’s cancellation would be an overly-cynical decision on Capcom’s part. The problem would more-likely-than-not have to lie elsewhere. I’d vouch for the Inafune theory.

---

*Or downright confounding them. Big bits of MML1 and MML2 are a lot to take in all at once.

Sorry if this post came off as more critical than I originally intended for it to be. I would've been finished sooner, but V5 ate up my progress when I hit the "create post" button. Now I know how Kyle feels.

[dram]

May 28, 2013 2:46:08 GMT -5 Mikéy said:

Just because a certain approach worked with one franchise doesn’t mean it has to be forced onto another. I personally haven’t played a majority of the games you’ve listed outside of KHII, and I must say, KHII actually does a good job utilizing a probable scenario that Capcom was going to pull off. Roxas / Barrett: The new audience. The goal: Go through a few scenarios to understand the game, combat, etc. (Re: 2nd paragraph of my first post)

One Franchise? I used 3. granted 2 have mingled but they were done by separate teams. Adding the new characters would be MUCH like adding Vann from FF12. His only reason for being there was because people hadn't played Tactics and the overall story suffered for it.

Next How would having Roll go through the SAME Tutorial would be any different. In MML2 she stayed back and didn't really do anything to help but now she's on her own she has to go through a learning curve. PLUS you get to push diversity by having a competent, strong female character in the lead hellbent on saving her friend instead of a another "MM" surrogate who's only involvement until now was...

Is it better than a long-winded cutscene? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the eye of the beholder. Personally, I kinda liked the approach and think that Capcom could’ve easily pulled it off with the Bright Bats. The whole Roxas-thing with KHII was a bit unnerving for replay value, but if playing as Roxas wasn't as horrifyingly drab as playing as Barrett was going to be, I'm sure anybody could overcome and overlook it.

You gotta admit, Barrett’s moves make him look like fun to play as to any general game player; temporarily or otherwise.

Yes he would be fun... for maybe his own game but what beyond Expo dose he bring to the game? Yet another character that shoots guns has interesting weapons and nothing to do with the story up until now? Either give them their own game or make them rivals for whatever reason. Making them the main distorts the heart of the games and is why it failed. "Missing a deadline" is the official excuse I somehow think "Now what?" would have caused more issues on the forums.

The idea was sound the practice was flawed.

Legends 2, right? Funny; that opening cutscene was made back when the series was still full of life. Simple recaps work really well when the games are only a year or two apart, and not a decade. It would've helped if the aforementioned games had fairly recent ports (which I mentioned earlier, also in my first post) so that way, people don’t have to… say… “pirate” the older versions to understand what a mystery-cutscene at the beginning of a long-overdue sequel (Legends 3) would be trying to explain.

But, there haven't been. So there really isn't a relatively fun way to sum everything up in a single cutscene with a "This happened, trust me." without putting newcomers* and fans alike to sleep.

And re-releasing them would hurt the process? I'm betting there are plenty who would jump at it being on PSN. I'll admit there is a LOT of stuff to be chocked down but that's the bad part about having plot thick stories. If it comes down to it just mix some of the back story into recordings. You can hand wave most of it by simply saying Data recorded it. not to mention a Viral marketing... or ANY marketing could be used to fill in the other parts, External source material is also a good way to bring people in.

It comes down to Information and Tutorials to get people hooked. Roll could easily be the one looking for parts. She could also use the Bonnn's for "training" or even Skill unlocking, Parts fabrication and the like. MML had a simple training "you wake up in a dungeon hit fire to kill things" The story was simple, Find these big crystal things to get off the island.

The second game was equally simple but with more Character Development. Having characters interact outside of cut scenes was awesome. Now the game takes place (any number of years later) Where we take over as Roll how is personally after Parts to build the Rocket and the like. You can still keep the others but and hell you can even have them working their way into the crew for what ever reason (like getting other parts) that's fine but A more personal touch is what is needed for this kind of game.

Trilogy? Whoever said Legends was going to just be a trilogy? I’m sure there’s more than enough potential backbone in the story for it to go further. Heck, there’s already three games to its name. That would mean…

You misunderstand the term Trilogy when used in a squeal based system. The numbers actually count for the releases in the order of the game. Tron was a Side game or a spin off if you will. Other then setting up her back story it has NOTHING to do with the game. That is literally like saying all the comics and books of the Star Wars fandom are cannon and count to the total number of releases.

Also I somehow doubt IF MML3 gets launched the franchise can recover. Making it a 3 parter with an opening for a next generation is about the best we can hope for.

Anyways, I don’t really see what was wrong with Capcom’s approach this time. Introducing new faces to help in achieving the goal of rescuing Megaman is far from bad writing; if anything, it gives Legends 3 the extra dose of light-heartedness that Legends 2 so desperately lacked. Think about it, would it really make sense if Klickelan was inhabited by nameless and unhelpful people who wouldn't lift a finger to help someone in need? Surely not. It would also open up a whole plethora of opportunities for various side-quests and side-content concerning each Bright Bats member.

It gave the dev team a massive "what now" is the problem. The issue I'm seeing is this would Roxes playing for over 90% of the game. with the final being the rescue MM just before the Reaverbot god descended... cause that is about the only way that could have ended if you wanted to play with ANY of the original actors. THAT would have killed MMl for good too.

See the reason MML2 was dark was because it had to be. How would "He's stuck on the moon...Forever" have felt if it had been all bunnies and rainbows with the same antics from MML? It would have been a wammo ending for sure but more of a Duse Ex Machina then slowly walking the steps knowing full well what was coming and would have alienated a lot of players. the third game was going to be redemption or the hope spot. The team work to save MM and in turn he comes home triumphant and e got a well earned happy ending. Adding the BB's would have no effect in the good of the story.

want Side quest games? How about WHO was Megaman Trigger? How did he loose his memory? Would Trigger know of a back door and at what cost would it be to bring him back? What about Tron and Roll? Does Tron have a scheme to screw over Roll to get MM as her own? Would MM even remember them if he decided to become Trigger to save the world? What the hell is Data? Will Roll and Tron be able to Save Rock from Trigger? Will Roll have to fight Trigger? "WHO WILL DIE?!?!" Toss in a Morality meter (like light and dark MML) and you have almost a full game Right there.

Any side quests the BB's could muster would be almost worthless when compared to these. Who are the BB's? Why do I care? What do they have to do with any of this? "Who will have Roll's Baby@?!?"

Simply put, I doubt that The Bright Bats were the reason that Legends 3 got canned. It’s pretty unfair that a gang with such colorful personalities and individual backgrounds could even be considered as the cause; in favor of a boring filler cutscene, anyways. We could throw opinions back and forth all day long, but it wouldn’t change the fact that a small group of characters being the reason for a whole game’s cancellation would be an overly-cynical decision on Capcom’s part. The problem would more-likely-than-not have to lie elsewhere. I’d vouch for the Inafune theory.

---

*Or downright confounding them. Big bits of MML1 and MML2 are a lot to take in all at once.

That's what adds and Viral stuff is for. They WERE using us for it. why not keep it up. Fan comics, The abridged, Word of Mouth, Forums It's not hard to build a next gen Source anymore. It's not like we are working with 10 or so year old information sources.

Sorry if this post came off as more critical than I originally intended for it to be. I would've been finished sooner, but V5 ate up my progress when I hit the "create post" button. Now I know how Kyle feels.

That's fine actually, I've been looking for a good reason why and "writing" seemed to have been the issue.

Capcom felt that WE were smart enough to do it. so maybe we should. I'm actually to the point of just making it myself. I'm looking to Unity once I figure it out.

i'm sorry about sound like a total ass it's just so hard for me to slog through this stuff. The whole thing just sounded like a really bad idea that got approved by capcom as some twisted experiment then closed it down when they got bored.

Also I'm probably going to dump my notes for MML3 W/O the BB's... I have put a LOT of thought into it.

[SketchMan3]

tldr, I don't think when he said "one franchise" he actually meant "you only mentioned one". "It's just a saying" as the saying goes... nittipikki

As far as I know, he didn't lose his memory, he downloaded it to Data for some reason which I forget.

I think the Star Wars books analogy is pretty bad, as those are a completely different medium from the Movies, which are movies. Whereas MOTB is a GAME just like the rest of the Mega Man Legends games. However, I wouldn't really count MOTB as adding up to a Trilogy. It's more of a spin-off than a part of the main group of MML games.

EWw.... Gaming nowadays is way too tutorial driven.

You say the Bright Bats had nothing to do with the story up until now... what about Bola Claymore Yuna Cera (oh wait, I forgot Juno does mention the mother units), Gatz, Geetz, Glyde, Appo, Dah, that hot dark-skinned girl in red at the graveyard, Joe's woman and little girl, etc etc I think you get my point. Barrett seems to be filling the role of the digger-man with the gun in MML1 (somebody here knows his name, I'm sure) that was cut from the final product. And a good counterpart to Aero would be... can't really think of one...

I think you all have very good points. Either way would work if it was done well. As it is, we really don't have enough info to tell either way. Seems like somebody is just down on the hype and emphasis that was put on these new characters. I doubt you'd give a care about them if they hadn't been hyped up so much.

[Dashe]

A less figurative rewording would go something like, "Just because a lengthy expository cutscene works for games A, B, and C, doesn't guarantee that it's the best option for game D." In fact, just doing the same old predictable stuff with every game you release actually hurts the chances of the game becoming a standout, which Legends 3 pretty much HAS to be in this market. 

May 28, 2013 4:24:22 GMT -5 dram said:

Next How would having Roll go through the SAME Tutorial would be any different. In MML2 she stayed back and didn't really do anything to help but now she's on her own she has to go through a learning curve. PLUS you get to push diversity by having a competent, strong female character in the lead hellbent on saving her friend instead of a another "MM" surrogate who's only involvement until now was...

A competent, strong female character in the lead? That sounds...actually, it sounds a lot like The Misadventures of Tron Bonne. While I've got nothing against that, and anyone here can vouch for me in that regard, having a competent, strong female lead just to fill a quota isn't always a good idea. At worst, you could wind up with her turning into a Faux Action Girl or even just going back to totally chickified once Mega Man gets back, which has even MORE unfortunate implications than just making the player surrogate a guy from the start. You can't deny that Mega Man's going to need Roll's spotting services and weapons once he gets back.

If, and this is a big if, we were to hypothetically go your route, where the player takes control of one of the girls, not to fill a quota, but because it makes sense with the direction that the devs want to take, it'd actually make more sense to go with Tron. Even in the Prototype we see now she and Teisel are actively going underground and going on digs, and she's been established as someone who's not afraid to get her hands dirty. She even has pre-established gameplay mechanics.

Yes he would be fun... for maybe his own game but what beyond Expo dose he bring to the game? Yet another character that shoots guns has interesting weapons and nothing to do with the story up until now? Either give them their own game or make them rivals for whatever reason. Making them the main distorts the heart of the games and is why it failed. "Missing a deadline" is the official excuse I somehow think "Now what?" would have caused more issues on the forums.

The idea was sound the practice was flawed.

None of us actually know what Barrett's purpose in the story was, but I'm pretty sure Inafune's team knew what they were doing. Inafune himself was actually around for the first few months, and he's had plenty of time to refine whatever general idea he had for the game way back in 2000 when they originally tried to pitch it. Chances are if he's so prominent in the intro, there's a good reason for that.  These developers didn't get their jobs by being lousy storytellers.

And re-releasing them would hurt the process? I'm betting there are plenty who would jump at it being on PSN.

You bet they would, and actually they ARE jumping at the bit for it, but the problem here is Capcom. They seem to have an endless supply of excuses as to why it hasn't been rereleased, in any sense of the word, and it seems like it's a different one every time.

I'll admit there is a LOT of stuff to be chocked down but that's the bad part about having plot thick stories. If it comes down to it just mix some of the back story into recordings. You can hand wave most of it by simply saying Data recorded it.

That sounds even more boring than watching a cutscene for twenty minutes...LISTENING to a cutscene.  Or reading one.  Gag me with a spoon.

not to mention a Viral marketing... or ANY marketing could be used to fill in the other parts, External source material is also a good way to bring people in.

I wouldn't be opposed to just jumping straight into 3 and having some kind of manga adaptation for the events of 1 and 2 that people could read if they want to. It's a lot less mandatory than forcing them to relive two games in a cutscene an infodump.

It comes down to Information and Tutorials to get people hooked.

...Listen to yourself. You're suggesting getting people hooked on a tutorial. Why not just plunk 'em straight in the middle of the action and give 'em a trial by fire instead? Or make the tutorial an optional feature like in Legends 2. People aren't stupid. As long as the controls are even slightly intuitive, they generally tend to do just fine.

MML had a simple training "you wake up in a dungeon hit fire to kill things" The story was simple, Find these big crystal things to get off the island.

Actually, that experience was chopped up by the mandatory "Do you see a door?" dialogue segments...and we all make fun of that. We make fun of it every chance we get.

The second game was equally simple but with more Character Development. Having characters interact outside of cut scenes was awesome. Now the game takes place (any number of years later) Where we take over as Roll how is personally after Parts to build the Rocket and the like. You can still keep the others but and hell you can even have them working their way into the crew for what ever reason (like getting other parts) that's fine but A more personal touch is what is needed for this kind of game.

You seem to be REALLY hooked on Roll. I mean, REALLY hung up on her. Like some kind of addiction. I'm gonna chalk you up as you just being another one of her fanboys, since you actually thought to make her fight BEFORE you thought to make Tron fight...maybe you ought to go into fanfiction writing. Just spruce up your spelling and you're golden.

Also I somehow doubt IF MML3 gets launched the franchise can recover. Making it a 3 parter with an opening for a next generation is about the best we can hope for.

Do you remember why Squaresoft called their original Final Fantasy "Final Fantasy" in the first place? They literally thought it was the last game they'd ever make because the whole company was about to go under.

Do you remember how Mega Man 2 actually only came into being because Inafune and his coworkers stayed long hours after work to make it in their spare time, and it wound up spawning over a hundred more Mega Man games over twenty years?

It ain't over till it's over, kid.

The issue I'm seeing is this would Roxes playing for over 90% of the game. with the final being the rescue MM just before the Reaverbot god descended... cause that is about the only way that could have ended if you wanted to play with ANY of the original actors. THAT would have killed MMl for good too.

Who says the game would've straight-up ended with Mega Man coming back? They even had a poll for designing how Mega Man would look in the game. For all we know, Barrett could've JUST been the main character in this ten-mission prologue chapter. He'd have to come back fairly early in the game to be able to put much of a dent in the Elder System, because Roll and company don't know about it.

want Side quest games? How about WHO was Megaman Trigger? How did he loose his memory? Would Trigger know of a back door and at what cost would it be to bring him back? What about Tron and Roll? Does Tron have a scheme to screw over Roll to get MM as her own? Would MM even remember them if he decided to become Trigger to save the world? What the hell is Data? Will Roll and Tron be able to Save Rock from Trigger? Will Roll have to fight Trigger? "WHO WILL DIE?!?!" Toss in a Morality meter (like light and dark MML) and you have almost a full game Right there.

Learning Trigger's function and mission to a full and complete extent, or even playing as Purifier Model Trigger, is definitely not something I'd want to find out as part of a sidequest.

Who are the BB's? Why do I care? What do they have to do with any of this?

You seem to be forgetting that Mega Man Legends is probably THE Mega Man series famous for making people care about characters we would never expect to care about.

"Who will have Roll's Baby@?!?"

Okay, yeah, we totally have a doddering Roll Fanboy here. Ignore every attempt I've made at trying to reason with it. I've met enough of its kind to know exaaaaaaactly where this is going. 

I'm probably going to dump my notes for MML3 W/O the BB's... I have put a LOT of thought into it.

As administrator of these forums, I insist that you dump them in the Creative Writing section. You're more likely to have people like your ideas if you present them as fiction instead of as some random dude trying to tell Capcom that Roll doesn't have a big enough part. 

[SketchMan3]

Don't know about hands, but Roll's oil-stained face is so cute :3

She does have a pretty powerful slap. She could probably be a full on Sakura (from Naruto) with some armor to augment her strength. She could probably do okay in a fight if she had to.

Anaaannywaay.... I'm not saying I agree with the whole "turn Barrett into Roll" idea. Not at all.

But, yeah, seriously, this series is huge on interesting side-characters. Dat Librarian...