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Post by Rockman Striker on May 7, 2012 13:53:18 GMT -5
No problem R4D! I was thinking more like Loken, all this religion and mythology mixture was made in order to present an interesting and mysterious religion in the game that only works as an excuse to present a "holy" side of the whole Master System as seen by the carbons, but once thoroughly examinated it's obvious that it's just that, a mixture of real life beliefs with changed references.
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Post by reaverbot4dinner on May 7, 2012 14:36:09 GMT -5
Well Rockman Striker, since it is so obvious what evidence do you present for the case that, all this religion and mythology mixture is just an excuse to present a holy side of the master system story? and thus, also that the story could not possibly be both insightful and philosophical case of morals?
because if you wanna say its obvious, ill call you on it, because I do find it almost insulting that I could not see the Obvious, and so I demand you prove your case on that. i kinda dont want to be in the Wrong, and too if it is so obvious that I am. Please Explain.
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Post by Loken on May 7, 2012 15:03:58 GMT -5
@r4d, The point is that the things we have discussed and each system characters roles maybe inspired by other cultures and beliefs but it's most likely not trying to make any kind of biblical statement.
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Post by Rockman Striker on May 7, 2012 15:07:11 GMT -5
Well, I'm not so sure how you interpreted what I've wrote so I don't understand why is insulting, what I was saying is that is obvious that Capcom only took some references and features of many real beliefs and mixed them into a fictional religion for plot purposes. I don't find it insightful or philosophical just because I'm not the kind of guy who tries to live according to what I've learned in videogames, even when I recognize that even a videogame can teach many good things.
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SketchMan3
Poh
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Post by SketchMan3 on May 7, 2012 15:49:42 GMT -5
I think it's a little deeper than just "obligatory ambiguous eclectic religion for plot". My reason for thinking so is based on statements made by Inafune about why he came up with the character Zero and his origins. It's very philosophically and religiously provocative. There's a lot of -- in my opinion non-accidental -- symbolism in the Megaman series. I don't think it stops with Zero.
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Post by reaverbot4dinner on May 7, 2012 16:49:48 GMT -5
I agree with sketchman3, Note if you could collect a list of the statements from Inafune for me Heck, i could even dare contacting him over something like this. Even tho i know he could not answer due to Capcom. XD
I have not bought the, its just for adding a holy element or just for engagement to the story. If Its obvious and most likely, but it still has not been explained why this is the most likely explanation or even obvious too. Evidence gentlemen.
and @rockman Striker, what i find almost insulting is that you claim it to be obvious, that this could have no message regarding religion, but not present evidence to suggest so. Its like saying, You dont see things the right way, and I wont tell you.
On top of that gentlemen you have walked into a trap, its proving a negative, which is impossible. You cant possibly prove your case, unless you could read Inafune's and his team's minds.
I think what you meant to say is that there is no provable Quality to the philosophically and religiously provocative themes that can be seen in the games, that is correct. But that would not make denial the obvious explanation.
Again, I can not see how you can say that your position is obvious But i am sorry, I would not know if keeping posters on their supposed words in good forum etiquette, but I could smell where it could go wrong before, so ill turn my nose away.
So then Sketchman3, what is your interpretation of the Master's System and all that?
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Post by Loken on May 7, 2012 17:43:59 GMT -5
I would never try to prove that it's not suppose to mean anything. In fact I'm sure it's full of meaning but I don't think it's supposed to be directly referencing Christianity. What I'm really interested in is how the ZX and Legends series connect. What with the seeming apocalypse and rise (or fall?) of the Elder System.
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SketchMan3
Poh
That's "SketchMan3". Capital S, capital M and the number 3. It's official (nicknames are ok, though)
Posts: 464
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Post by SketchMan3 on May 7, 2012 19:00:28 GMT -5
I would never try to prove that it's not suppose to mean anything. In fact I'm sure it's full of meaning but I don't think it's supposed to be directly referencing Christianity. What I'm really interested in is how the ZX and Legends series connect. What with the seeming apocalypse and rise (or fall?) of the Elder System. Interesting you say that, because I would have thought the same thing if not for all the anime I've seen in which Christianity is directly referenced. Msot of the historical anime I've seen have an episode or story arc in which Christianity or a Christian is directly or indirectly involved, and portrayed in various ways. I wouldn't totally rule it out. I wouldn't say it's ONLY an excuse to add a "holy" aspect, but I'm sure that's at least part of it. @r4d: I see many parallels drawn between MML2 story and Christianity, particularly the second advent. I honestly wish I didn't see the parallels. Humanity going to heaven/elysium = the saved going to heaven. The reinitialization program = the saved returning to earth after a thousand years. The reaverbots killing everybody = hellfire cleansing the earth, making it pure for the saved to inhabit the New Earth. Megaman fighting against Sera = The Dragon attacking the heavenly host as they descend. Remember that Megaman used to be a part of the Master System until he clashed with them, in the same way that Lucifer was the highest ranking angel until he rebelled. But in this case, the Dragon wins instead of being burned up. But that's just one way to interpret it. For example, Megaman could represent grace, and Sera justice. But it's the one that keeps coming to mind. The idea impressed me even more when I found out that in Japan "elysium" is referred to as "heaven". I didn't particularly appreciate the Master deciding that "flawed" humanity was better than "perfection". Reminds me of that movie "Pleasantville", where introducing adultery, lying, stealing, etc.. was portrayed as being a good thing. I couldn't stand that. Edit 2: However, if the Master's thought was that "artificial perfection" was flawed, and that it would be better for humanity to live naturally, then yeah, it's all good. Edit: And, on a more secular level, here's what I posted at The MMNetwork in response to the "Megaman as Malware" article they posted; Yeah, I totally think Megaman is not the type of guy HUMANS should be looking up to. He's a maverick, and should be exterminated for the sake of US, the rightful humans.
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Post by reaverbot4dinner on May 8, 2012 3:25:55 GMT -5
Hm now sketchman3 ill then say I think of myself as a carbon.. Because i can feel pain etc I think that scene with the master tells an important ridicule of the Heaven / Eternal bliss content of many religions. The Master see humans is more happy because they know hardship, would this mean we truely would be more happy here, than without hardship? very Provocative....
In this view Megaman is the Hero of Carbon Humanity..
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SketchMan3
Poh
That's "SketchMan3". Capital S, capital M and the number 3. It's official (nicknames are ok, though)
Posts: 464
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Post by SketchMan3 on May 8, 2012 8:59:36 GMT -5
Hm now sketchman3 ill then say I think of myself as a carbon.. Because i can feel pain etc I think that scene with the master tells an important ridicule of the Heaven / Eternal bliss content of many religions. The Master see humans is more happy because they know hardship, would this mean we truely would be more happy here, than without hardship? very Provocative.... In this view Megaman is the Hero of Carbon Humanity.. Funny you should mention that. There's a concept in Christianity which states that upon arrival in heaven, the saved will sing a song that the Angels can't even sing, because the angels never had to deal with the hardships that the saved had to deal with on Earth. They are appreciative of heaven because they KNEW hardship on earth. Those humans who moved to the moon had to deal with pain at some point, too. It's not like they were living on Elysium all their lives. That's hardship and pain are not unique to carbons. And, yeah, I didn't appreciate that at all. Like you said, very provocative. I think, with all there would be to do being immortal and perfect -- having a higher capacity for learning, enhanced abilities, everlasting peace, unlimited research capacity, all the infinite potential of the universe yet to be discovered, work to be done, art to be created -- I don't think eternal bliss would be that boring. Or ever get boring. It's a misconception that the humans of Elysium had of what "paradise" means, which caused them to veg out with being waited on hand and foot by the system. The paradise of Elysium was lazy and artificial, because they were only serving themselves. They didn't have a God to serve and give them direction. They tried to play gods themselves. Anyway, I'm glad I was able to get that off my chest. Edit: Oh yeah, and one more thing. Whatever "superiority" the "imperfect carbons" supposedly have over the "blissful humans" would be a moot point if the humans returned to earth, because then they would essentially be starting over, and having to deal with this world covered by endless water. Which now makes me wonder... would the reinstated ancients technically be carbons? But now, I suppose the carbons don't have human DNA.
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Post by reaverbot4dinner on May 8, 2012 13:20:06 GMT -5
Since the name Carbons would mean that they are build up just like we are, I feel more connected to them than to any ever living human. and tho you say so surely, that humans would have experienced pain too, I dont think so
The Master calls the World he lives in perfect.. and that is its error, that is why I too find carbons superior through imperfection. if the World he lives in is perfect, this would mean that Human kind would have some sort of perfect endless bliss technology.
The Master says then that he and all humans were wrong, and that the pain, suffering etc makes people happier than in eternal bliss. Now about Christianity, there is a concept for almost everything in Christianity with all the denominations and apologetic, there is a danger with what you draw out and call it Christianity. Christianity can argue itself out of everything, Perfect life is not perfect without God
I mean even God is Godless, God does not have a god so there is no difference between God and The Master and the Master's System The Master changed his mind, but in Christianity that is controversial issue, an given both the origins of the Bible everything in it gets harder.
On this issue, I think i rather say Megaman Legends makes a deal with the God concept in general terms, than just in Christianity. because I kinda forgot there were more religions than Christianity, that has what concepts i feel Megaman Legends critiques.
It seems you also would like to live eternally, The master seems to disagree with you. I think we have to think about who is most likely is what character in the Christianity setting.
Further about "paradise of Elysium was lazy and artificial, because they were only serving themselves" this goes to the age old Question, a provocative one for most of Christian beliefs, "What will we do in heaven?" I am a personal fan of CS. Lewis, with all his Divine Sex on that.
and I dont understand your Edit point tho
Anyway, to the bookself for my philosophy of religion books! ill see if I can dig something up.
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SketchMan3
Poh
That's "SketchMan3". Capital S, capital M and the number 3. It's official (nicknames are ok, though)
Posts: 464
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Post by SketchMan3 on May 8, 2012 19:03:02 GMT -5
Since the name Carbons would mean that they are build up just like we are, I feel more connected to them than to any ever living human. and tho you say so surely, that humans would have experienced pain too, I dont think so The Master calls the World he lives in perfect.. and that is its error, that is why I too find carbons superior through imperfection. if the World he lives in is perfect, this would mean that Human kind would have some sort of perfect endless bliss technology. I'm talking about the humans who migrated from earth on Jakobs ladder (MMX8). They had to transition into "perfection", it didn't just *boom* happen. They had to build it, and in so doing, experience the same old things we experience now, pain, frustration, etc. I also made the point that they had nobody to serve but themselves. God, though he is Master, also lives to serve His creations. You know how they say "The King is the servant to his kingdom". And not to mention, that Christ referred to God has His Father, even though Christ was God Himself. That just makes it even more complicated. And the "perfect life with God" is based on God. An artificially perfect life would, by it's very existence, be in denial of God. So even if God has no god, His very presence within Himself creates perfect perfection. :24: Yeah. *shrugs* I'm sorry... syntax error... this is unreadable. But... If I'm decoding this right, my response: I always keep in mind that "the master" was made-up by a regular old guy just like me, with no special "enlightenment" as far as I can see (Loken might agree with me there, lol), lol, so I don't put special stock in what he has to say, haha. And yeah, the Master character seems to be made up of a hodge-podge of various concepts and ideas, mythological and original, not just the Christian "god". I haven't read any of his religious works. Just Narnia, and some quotes. There are a whole lot of things for an immortal created being to do that we can't do now. To answer the "provocative" question, I'd say, everything we do now, save the things deemed "sinful": Play, run, make music, learn, sing, work, build, explore, worship, read, write, love, etc, architecture, science, technology, smile, talk, eat, drink, lay around doing nothing, etc etc etc. I really just don't agree with the idea that happiness through "imperfection" > happiness through perfection, so that's where my perspective is. And, really, nobody can say whether it's true or not, because nobody has ever attained perfection. It's all theories. I'll say this, though. It's definitely true that a person is more appreciative of peace after they've gone through chaos. Doesn't mean they have to keep experiencing that chaos in order to obtain peace, though. I'm basically saying that cloning the Master's DNA into beings on Terra would force them to "eke out a living" in the "water world" currently inhabited by the carbons, thus forcing them to have to start back over in the "imperfect" world which humanity had abandoned. So, even if the carbons are somehow superior due to their hardship, that would be made invalid once the humans came back to Terra (to replace the dead carbons), because they'd be virtually identical to the carbons in all ways, except for their DNA. I liked it better in MML1 when "carbon" was just another word for human =\
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