The Church of The Godesses

[Loken]

As I was reading this weeks minicomics set in the church I realized that we really don't know anything about what would be preached there.
We know the story, about the Godess of the Earth and the Godess of the Sky, and we know that they are Yuna and Sera respectively, but aside from that the entire place is a mystery.
So what do you think they would preach? Is Yuna revered while Sera is feared?
Why is there a digger test inside of the church? The preacher hates that you kill reaverbots, so why is the test there? Do they worship the Reavers?
Why do you think every grave in the cemetery is of someone lost on forbidden island.
And what do you think of the fact that giving them money makes you lighter? Is the whole morale system linked to Elysian and the master system considering megaman was part of it?

Tell me what you think, any theory that you have, or an observation about the church.

[Avegodro]

Well the priest references the Holy Father / God so we could assume its a regular christian church. Though the Holy Father/God could be the master :22:

I believe they built the church to worship the goddesses and the church switched over to Christianity at a later date. That would explain the diggers guild, the test and the ruins entrance.

I wouldn't say the priest hates that Trigger destroys reaverbots, more that he is saddened by the fact.

"Even though you do so in self-defense, it must be hard on you to kill so many innocent Reaverbots."

[Z-Mania]

If I say my part I am gonna end up a party pooper. Simply because the contrasts here are so insane that it will lead to suggesting the whole thing was an incomplete plan and is too difficult to be structured into a complete idea to prove that was its purpose other than making a reference to the real world.

What I will say instead, is that I think the idea of the gods and goddesses being elysiums master system mothers, is a really cool idea. I thought it was quite creative for the developers to make such a comparison to real world religion, but it shouldn't come as a surprise considering there isn't really anything this series DOESN'T have, except a third installment >=( *frowns at Capcom*

But.. I susspose ill put my creative mind to use and provide an entertaining answer to your questions..

Think about the church worshipping a holy god. Those people who died trying to unlock the "treasure" which was actually a "disaster" now lay dead before the church of god. Interesting? Think about sin, the garden of eden and how in christianity temptation leads to suffering. Now they lay in rest.

One thing I always noticed was how the earth goddess is represented as good which still bothers me to this day, and is often on my mind every so often. Earth is associated with primal/primitave, and earth gods are associated with satan. Oh, wait, forgot to mention a key reference: Yuna is the earth goddess because she is in charge of terras system. Sera is the sky goddess because shes in charge of Elysium. For any fans here who didnt know that, you do now. Continueing. Notice something here. Yuna is also rebellious in personality, knowledge seeking, and a fallen angel of the masters (gods) system. The master made the system, but near the latter part of his life, rebelled against it aswell, so you could say that Yuna is not a fallen angel of the master himself. Then theres sera, sky goddess. She followed the system through and didnt decide to go against it until after nearly dieing. Though always unhappy.. Anyway, she was the perfect angel of the system, but really didnt have that.. call it love? That Trigger and Yuna had. Now, after watching the movie "Legion", I noticed that how the angel Gabriel came off was very similar to Sera. He followed the system to the exact T, but in the end he didnt have the heart that was truely important of gods angels. So gabriel was downcast. Michael on the other hand, had a heart. He believed in humanity when god lost hope. He rebelled against god to help humanity fight for a second chance, essentially, michael followed his heart. In the end, a baby that wasnt sussposed to be born was birthed, and michael succeeded in showing god there was still hope for humanity. Gabriel on the other hand was a cold war machine like sera. Followed orders to a T, but in the end his powers as an angel were stripped from him, and michael became gods new favorite. I think that, Yuna could be said to be Michael aswell. Why then, was Yuna associated with the Earth? If the earth is sussposed to be associated with the devil? Is it just a character reference for her rebelliousness (as most of you would agree)? Or a very unthoughtout reference, as I would agree but I would imagine they chose earth because of its rebellion like the rest of you however they didnt think of the fact that her charater being in favor of carbons was not accurate for the devil rep. which brings me to the illumati fans slice of beef: they made that "inaccuracy" on purpose to confuse people into thinking the devil is good and in favour of humanity, and Capcom works for the devil. Well that was fun, but i didnt say all that on purpose! Now, determining wether Yuna or Sera was worshipped.. Well, if the illumati theory is true, probably Yuna. If it wasn't, probably Yuna. Is Sera revered? Who knows, she is after all, the "mother lode" any1 notice how effective that pirate slang is in this game since sera is a "mother" XD

The ruin could be seen as a place of trial and the diggers test as the test for which place you will go to. If you "succeed", you do so by murdering reverbots good enough to be in training for a war machine. But when you succeed, you essentially get exactly what you want, to go into ruins that put you to a more difficult test. So really, is the diggers test a metaphor for messing up and doing bad things (killing revearbots ruthlessly)? And when we do those bad things life gets harder (god does more things to put us to the test aka trying to stop us from doing more bad things (reaver-murder) by making them harder to do (making them more powerful)? Think of it this way, you go into ruins, kill reverbots, steal thier refractors.. Greedy much? And activate systems that will destroy them by doing so. Illuminati fans will love this idea aswell. Its reflective of how we delve into the devils domain, get what we want from them by doing bad things, but in turn our world gets closer to ending by doing so. I believe ive mostly covered your questions.

[Loken]

You have some great points there ZMania!
Definitely looking further into the figurative than I was expecting from this thread, which I like.
I think the point of the Skygoddess/Sera is that Elysium is out of touch with Terra and it's people. Once Trigger and the Master got to knowing the Carbons they realized how terrible the system really was.
Your point about the diggers test is interesting as well.
The Legends games subtly hint (amongst other media) that the world would be better off if people like Rock didn't do what they do.
Treasure hunting always turns up perfectly avoidable ancient danger.
Although it is important to note that Kattelox would have been reinitialized eventually if not for Rock's treasure hunting.

Imagine if Sera was never released in MML2? Wouldn't everything have been better for everyone? This reminds me of the search for truth that ends badly and how ignorance is bliss.

Avegodro, I'm not quite sure about the Christianity idea. I'm more inclined to think that Holy Father is supposed to be the Master as you said.


Also very important to recognize that Capcom probably didn't think through all this, but that's the fun right?

[Z-Mania]

I pen the realm of figuration.

I see what your saying about rock, however would like to point out that chances are the carbons would have unlocked the same things he did in time. But would they be able to stop them as trigger did, is unknowable. Additionally, if rock hadn't imprisoned mother 2, terra would probably be gone already. So in reality, its better rock exsist then not. Of course, maybe the system shouldn't exsist, but w/o the system, we have no legends series to play, and without trigger, i have no husband.

[Speculator]

I hear the calling to my name!

First of all lets establish something:

Elder System = Old Testament, Master System = New Testament

Master = Jesus figure

From IC:

And I believe the church understands that reaverbots do not have an independent mind of its own but are "PROGRAMMED" (they are robots afterall) to do what they must and thats why it holds a digger test for self-defense. However, the belief of the church having deemed reaverbots as "innocent" extends from the more independent programs such as Trigger, Juno, Gatz, Geetz, Sera and Yuna. Oh and don't forget the whole story of Juno.. (I believe it has something to do with his name and some ancient reference or crossing over of some kind.) Anyways, that brings the question of what does Gatz and Geetz function as? The servants to the "angels" as z-mania defined?

[Rockman Striker]

I think that church is very spooky (as any other church i've seen, no offense) first of all, the doors open by it's own. Have you ever looked to the ceiling? there are two paintings showing two ladies similar to Maria, one is in dark colors an the other is white, referencing Yuna and Sera's colors, there's other painting right above the entrance but I forgot what it looks like.
Strangely enough, there are many similarities with catholic beliefs, but I said there is no connection with real religions at all, Capcom seemed to borrow real life beliefs and changed them to create a "new" religion.

I agree with Z-Mania in some aspects, for example, Yuna could be considered the "bad" angel, a demon if you want (that's why her dark clothing) because she revealed against the system, still, the people in Yosyonke worship both girls, how can that be possible? Here in Mexico, are many people which consider themselves as catholic, they worship God, Maria, and many other "saints" each with it's own attributes. And there are many other who also worship "La Muerte" (the death or the reaper) which is represented as a cloaked skeleton holding a scythe as you may know, how can they pray to god and the reaper (Satan) at the same time? only they know, or they think they know. So this could be the case with Yosyonke religion, they worship the good girl because she is, well the good one, and the bad girl because they fear some kind of punishment from her. The "holy father" reference is just another hint of a system character (the master) having no real purpose in that religion at all, as anything mysterious in game, it was just something put in game having no real importance at all.

At Z-Mania: I've watched that movie too, I've found it very ridiculous and inaccurate of what could happen in the last days before Armageddon, I mean, one angel is powerful enough to kill more than 1800 people on one night (Read it on your bible) without having to posses a single person, and in the case of an angel possessing a person as the demons do, it doesn't mean the person would get edgy fangs or darkened eyes and get frenzy. Where were Satan and his demons on that movie? If the angels start killing people by God's orders then the demons become the good ones? that's exactly what they want us to believe.
End of off-topic.

[Edich]

@z-Mania: Interesting theory, I like it. Here's how I see their teachings, I'm borrowing a bit from your own theory as well.

Well, first there's these little legends we have from the game's transcript:

Man in Front of Goddess Statue:

"Two goddesses, the same yet different. One goddess to rule the heavens above, one to rule the earth below. She of the earth guards the key, she of the sky guards the record of the ages. When the sky goddess lifts up her voice, all shall end, and all shall begin...What do you think? Interesting little story, isn't it?"

Church Priest:

"There is an old legend which says the sky goddess sleeps on Forbidden Island. The legends say that long ago, the world was watched over by two goddesses. One guarded the Keys on the land, the other protected the gates of the sky...One day, when the goddess of the sky came to borrow the Keys from the goddess of the earth, they argued, and the sky goddess was imprisoned by the earth goddess on Forbidden Island. So the legends say."

Anyway, on to the conjecture.

Yuna/Earth Goddess is the Shepherd of the Earth Age, the Provider, and the Protecter of Mankind.

Sera/Sky Goddess is the Bringer of the New Age, the Punisher, and the protector of Heaven and it's knowledge.

The Master is the Holy Father AKA God.

As the keeper of the "key", which Sera needs to activate the CRP, Yuna is what keeps Sera from killing all the Carbons. As such the church probably sees her as the provider and protector of Mankind during their time on Earth, as shown by the legend the Priest tells and the fact that she is still worshiped alongside Sera, the church most likely believes that she is the own who presides over and protects the men of Earth, as well as the own who decides when they are ready or worthy to enter the New Age. In this sense, they probably see Sera as in the wrong for overstepping her jurisdiction and trying to set off the New Age too early. As such, they probably believe the Sky Goddess will be released by the Earth Goddess when the time has come for the New Age. What that New Age entails to them, I have no idea, but I'll assume the standard Eternal Peace for the worthy deal.

However, the Earth Goddess, as their provider, may be taken advantage of, and mankind may take to excess and over-population(which usually means a rise in sin/crime), leading Sera or one of the Bureaucratic Units to EDEN them. While this is truthfully just to stop the population growth, the church sees it as punishment for sins and misusing the Earth Goddess' gifts.

Hence their involvement in the Digger's Guild. They see the ruin's supplies and the refractors as gifts from the Earth Goddess, and that she gave them enough for their race to survive to see the New Age. But they fear taking too much and succumbing to excess and being punished by the Sky Goddess for it. So they place limits on who can enter what ruin through the guild's Digger License system so only a few worthy can collect at any given time. This is also why they see the reaverbot's as innocent, as they were placed there by the Goddess to keep just anyone from waltzing in and claiming her gifts, leading to excess and punishment.

This all from the viewpoint of the Carbons, of course, the validity to all this is mostly false as we actually know what the Master System is about(and to an extent, the Elder System). And of course, the validity of this on canon is pretty much null since it's all conjecture from me.

Anyway, with all this talk of excess, I'm going to go into a little segue here. If you really think about it, Jesus' coming can really be considered as God's reaction to the human's over-population and developing of excess goods. Before Jesus' death, it was customary to sacrifice to God. Back when this was first ordained, however, people's communities were small and sparse enough that every family had to farm or ranch in some form. The idea behind the sacrifice was that you took your best animal, back then you're entire livelihood, and give it to God to show your love and respect for him. But as technology advanced and communities grew, not everyone needed to farm anymore. There was now full-time merchants and craftsmen and noblemen. So sacrifices were no longer you're prized goat for many but rather that live chicken you bought down at the market for 2 coins. So there was no love behind the act, just blood, meaning it wasn't a true sacrifice, as the sacrifice was really meant to come from you, not the animal's life. Hence the coming of Jesus as the final sacrifice. Meaning, if you really think about it, Jesus' role, in a simplistic explanation, was to be God's messenger to mankind that he was changing the rules.

Which leads me to the Jesus analogue of our fictional religion. Isn't Megaman's original mission to carry out the Master's will of changing the System's rules and eliminating the need for the CRP?

tl;dr Megaman is Jesus.

Even without the Carbon religion stuff he can still be figuratively considered this, since the Master's race practically see themselves as Gods and Elysium is sort of the Greek word for Heaven(which is the word the Japanese version uses for it). Heck, he was even reborn with the Master's(God's) Genetic Code within him.

As for people wandering how both Yuna and Sera can still be worshiped at the same time with this scenario, just think of it like a more non-biblical, polytheistic religion or mythology where there usually isn't a being of pure good and pure evil, but rather multiple gods that often succumb to the same trappings of mortals, like arguments. There was no corruption, or stealing of followers, just a disagreement.

Like when Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades decided who would be the leader of the Pantheon by gambling and Hades got the short end of the stick and was given the Underworld to govern, making him resent the other gods on Olympus. Doesn't make him pure evil, it makes him unlucky and really miffed.

[Z-Mania]

Hmm. You know whats retarted? How we miss a key detail. Its not overpopulation that is sin, or anything that is sin, because the perfect world, does not have death, or the need to murder/need to eat, so on so on...

"However, the Earth Goddess, as their provider, may be taken advantage of, and mankind may take to excess and over-population(which usually means a rise in sin/crime), leading Sera or one of the Bureaucratic Units to EDEN them. While this is truthfully just to stop the population growth, the church sees it as punishment for sins and misusing the Earth Goddess' gifts"

When you say that, it just chills me. There is nothing just about murdering a mass population, to restart it all over again just to recommit the slaughter. The issue is not and has never been a controlled population, its removing things that make our world imperfect, such as hunger as i said, tech that doesnt pollute.. Essentially, Elysium, is the perfect world. This I think is what the master realised in the end, the system was a death trap, set up for endless death and slaughter. He realised that humans were happy with thier simple pleasures and lives, even though they were sick and dieing. The system he thought would make the perfect world, made the world imperfect, because of its evil.

[Deleted]

Everyone has quite good points about the church as well as how it's parallel to Christianity.

As for the priest and his dislike for the reaverbots being killed: maybe he sees it as us invading their territory and killing them for defending it? I mean, those reaverbots basically live there. Never mind the fact that some reaverbots are tough little buggers.

[Qwertman]

Me whilst reading this thread:
"Ohhhhh...
...
Ohohohoho!
...
...
EEEEEEeeeeeeeee!!!
...
Oh my god they're right...
...
Aha!
...
Oh, WOW... WOOOOWWWW."
I had no clue this many parallels could be drawn.

[reaverbot4dinner]

I think Yuna fits the litterature character of Satan/ Lucifer
The fallen Angel
(remember her black clothes, and her very sinful skirt )

I enjoyed reading this very much, I swear ill use this for my Lore Dive Project untangeling the litterature is what we do.
and I believe Games have potential to be litterature, Megaman Legends show this to be true.

But damm, I think I disagree alot on the interpretations, I dont like the Megaman is Jesus interpretation at all, because it is so easy.

And as I know the japanese I hardly see them putting much in favour of Christianity. I think Megaman is the one special humankind there is, you and me. and I think you take this speciality and favour for Megaman by the Master to mean that megaman is supposed to be Jesus.
I find it much more plausible for the master to be Jesus, as he is the changer, but also the programmer.

Consider Sera, The Master and The Master System to be the Trinity (Judgement, Salvation and Divinity/Holy)
Take the Master System to be the old testament god, Sera is acting still on that bacis, she would be God. The Master who disagreed with himself, self being the programmer of God.
The master is God of the God whom God disagreed with.

I dont buy that the Elder System is the old testament, because there is no knowledge of it and the Elder system does not judge, so what is it?

Because Christianity does not god that far back as to before God. Unless, its a hint that Christianity just is a religion and it is built from something older. I find this interpretation much more Atheistic. which fits more to the 1% of Japan seems to be Christian. and Buddhism being a spiritual Atheism of sorts from that viewpoint.

I am going to keep this thread under my eye, one day ill use it.
In the mean time...

I am a believer in the Elder System, and all you MegaJesus believers are wrong! And only Crusades will settle this.

[Rockman Striker]

Now you confused me reaverbot4dinner (R4D for short ) The god of the god whom disagreed with? XD

I too think that videogames are some kind of "interactive literature" and I found this similarities quite fun, but just that, I'm not so sure what you think and I'm no one to lecture you, but my point of view is: it's just a game, sure there are a lot of links between Christianity ( I'm sure it's more a catholic point of view) and the in-game religion, some of you know that I'm a Jehovah's witness, so I don't want to link my beliefs with a fictional religion, which is more a catholic + christian + atheism + whoknowswhat? XD I mean, someone could say something like "I'm alive thanks to the Master" it sounds funny, but not to take it seriously, that's my two cents, just to clarify, you can believe what you want anyway XD

[reaverbot4dinner]

I am totally cool with that Rockman Striker.
You dont have to read my interpretations, more so if it challenges your faith, I would not want that then.

[Loken]

I'm glad there has been so much good discussion in this thread!
I had to read Frankenstein and the stories of Prometheus in AP Lit and the basic concept is here too. Reaching out for some incredible breakthrough that will help mankind and suffering for it. As for the symbolism and drawing parallels between MML characters and biblical figures I think that is more the inspiration for the theme of the whole master system thing, rather than the point of it.