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Post by chefwaffles on Dec 29, 2009 22:51:53 GMT -5
I used to play legends 1 and 2 as a child, aged 10 or so around when it was still a newer game, now that I'm 18 I replayed it and it's so interesting to me.
The first game ends basically in Eden, which correlates with the Gardens of Eden, where Adam and Eve were first 'created'.
The second game ends in Elysium, which correlates with Elysium, the underworld in Greek Mythology.
It interests me greatly. Why would the initial game pose the carbon 'extermination' program in the birthplace of humans, then the second one pose it in the end place of humans.
Also, being that Megaman is banned to Elysium, it's as if he's dead?
Thoughts? I'm just intrigued
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Post by Buster Cannon on Dec 29, 2009 23:13:23 GMT -5
The second game ends in Elysium, which correlates with Elysium, the underworld in Greek Mythology.
Also, being that Megaman is banned to Elysium, it's as if he's dead?
First off, welcome to the forums, chefwaffles!
Now about your question itself, the meaning of the word "Elysium" can be interpreted in more than one way, as referenced in this Wikipedia article:
This could be a reference to Zeus, the god of lightning, so "lightning-struck" could be saying that the person was blessed (struck) by Zeus (lightning). Scholars[who?] have also suggested that Greek Elysion may have instead been derived from the Egyptian term ialu (older iaru), meaning "reeds," with specific reference to the "Reed fields" (Egyptian: sekhet iaru / ialu), a paradisaical land of plenty where the dead hoped to spend eternity.
I don't think Capcom was going for the "underworld" definition. First off, the Japanese version of the game lists Elysium as 'Heaven" letting you know right off the bat that this is supposed to be a paradise of some sort. Elysium was a perfect (albeit cold-natured) world that was watched by Sera. Secondly, the alternate ending of Megaman X5 comes to mind, where X wants to build Elysium, a perfect world for Reploids and Humans to coexist together in. I doubt X would want to send people to any kind of underworld (unless he has some serious issues we don't know about ;D).
Eden's a bit more mysterious, as all we know is that it's a space fortress that's packing some serious weaponry as well as 10,000 workers. From what I understand, you're actually able to board the thing in Namco x Capcom, but I haven't seen it for myself. I'm not really sure how much creation would have to do with the space shuttle itself, as it seems more ready to wipe everything off of the face of Kattelox if anything else. |
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Post by chefwaffles on Dec 29, 2009 23:23:39 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome  Yea I read that on wikipedia as well. I just find it interesting that the underworld is also a paradise, based on different interpretations. I remember reading before that the plains of Elysium were where the spirits would roam free, and it reminds me of the little separate fields in Elysium where you would find large reaverbots running around (In the center being the Master's room). Great allusion. Elysium as a heaven is also interesting. It's still a place for death, yet ideal, a utopia as you must, but the whole concept of being banned to a utopia is very interesting. You're in a place that is perfect... yet you don't want to be there? Chilling! Now that I think of it, the mix of Eden being the birthplace of mankind, versus Eden being the destruction of mankind (or the destruction of Kattelox, same thing) really does fortify the "purification" that's said in each game. As if the master just said "Let's kill off everyone, and start over." Very interesting if you ask me. |
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Post by Buster Cannon on Dec 29, 2009 23:45:54 GMT -5
I remember reading before that the plains of Elysium were where the spirits would roam free, and it reminds me of the little separate fields in Elysium where you would find large reaverbots running around (In the center being the Master's room). Great allusion.
Never thought of it that way, but yeah, it is a pretty good allusion. I always found the Residential Areas pretty intriguing, and it's a shame we aren't allowed to go inside any of the houses and such. The 'free spirit' thing seems pretty interesting, particulary since the Master was so fond of that aspect, so the idea of reavers running free outside of his house seems pretty appropriate.
Chilling is probably the ideal term for the place. As the Master himself mentioned, Elysium is perfect, but lacks the warmth he observed from the people on Terra, which is why he gave Trigger permission to wreck the place. Sera is the perfect illustration of this, given her cold, robotic nature. Yuna, on the other hand, watches over Terra, and seems to be a lot more lively and energetic (this may be linked to her abandoning her old shell as well). There also seems to be a bit of foreshadowing to Elysium shutting down post-Legends 2, when Yuna mentions that she can't remember the last time she saw Sera smile.
We still don't know how the Carbons themselves came about, and Eden may very well have something to do with that. If anything, I could say the religious bearing of this being that the Master (or Juno) finds the world corrupted (or over-populated), and proceeds to kill it with fire. |
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Post by chefwaffles on Dec 30, 2009 1:26:54 GMT -5
Great thoughts It makes perfect sense with Sera and Yuna. Sera is quite jealous  . Residential Area, exactly what it's called. I wish I could just jump off! Or yes, go in the other houses. Any thoughts, anyone else? |
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Qwertman
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Post by Qwertman on Dec 30, 2009 10:42:49 GMT -5
The androids (I know they're called something else but I can't remember at the moment), thought that the pruning of the carbon population would be a good thing so Eden does make some sense for a name for that. What absolutely dumbfounded me was the use of indulgences in the second game! Dang capcom, making a very undeniable (although not necessarily obvious) criticism of the Catholics. 'course it also alludes to the later history lesson.
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Post by Pitch on Dec 30, 2009 14:23:31 GMT -5
Dang capcom, making a very undeniable (although not necessarily obvious) criticism of the Catholics. That's as hilarious as the claims that Capcom's "racist." I got a good lol. That's probably why Capcom America changed the name from Heaven to Elysium too: they didn't want to offend people. They did the same thing in MegaMan ZX, too, but they called it "Haven". (inconsistency fail) The main point being there's no special significance to the actual name "Elysium," with respect to the series. Although, I don't particularly believe there's any real special significance to the names "Heaven" or "Eden" in the games either. Heaven is an ironic name, but only at the most basic level: there's not a lot about it that's analogous to anything special. And I doubt even Capcom had any special meaning in mind for Eden. It's just whatever sounds cool. Also, the "secret" ending of ZX Advent has some interesting potential connection to Legends that kind of relates to this topic; you should check that out.. (chances are it'll actually amount to nothing, though) |
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Qwertman
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Post by Qwertman on Dec 30, 2009 17:37:42 GMT -5
My opinion on the indulgences thing isn't simply because they're there, but because the church on Yosyonke is really creepy and even the way the two people speak has a dark aspect about it. Maybe its just because I played that part during my AP World History tenure, however I was really shocked at the time at Capcom's non-subtlety.
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Post by chefwaffles on Dec 31, 2009 2:43:41 GMT -5
OH MAN I AGREE!
It's always "Make a donation, Make a donation!"
Why is the Digger's guild in the church!? WHY ARE THERE RUINS IN THE CHURCH!? Very sinister.
Also now that I just finished the game again, I think there might be a funny message in the last cinematic. It's just ironic how the Bonne's, Roll, and the rest of them are trying to get to Elysium, or heaven...
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MayImilae
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Post by MayImilae on Dec 31, 2009 7:26:22 GMT -5
I always believed it was because the church was "worshiping" ruins and/or reaverbots. It makes sense I suppose, the society was built with these monsters hanging out underground, monsters capable of killing people, and yet the society is based on the technology they got from them. Sorta like an agrarian societies worshiping rain and storms.
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Post by Buster Cannon on Dec 31, 2009 12:17:13 GMT -5
Why is the Digger's guild in the church!? WHY ARE THERE RUINS IN THE CHURCH!? Very sinister. I always believed it was because the church was "worshiping" ruins and/or reaverbots. It makes sense I suppose, the society was built with these monsters hanging out underground, monsters capable of killing people, and yet the society is based on the technology they got from them. Sorta like an agrarian societies worshiping rain and storms.
I guess the real question would be why they chose to build a church over a ruin, as their location is stagnant. It could be because it's the last place pirates would actually try to look for one; I never really thought they worshiped the reaverbots, as it more or less seems like a traditional, God-worshiping church. However, this quote from the priest himself sort of caught my eye:
May God's blessing be upon you, my Digger friend. Even though you
do so in self-defense, it must be hard on you to kill so many innocent
Reaverbots. Let me pray for you. I will require a donation, however.
In light of MaJoR's post, I'd think that they had some sort of high view of reaverbots; not enough to worship them, but enough that they consider their lives just as important as their own.
Also now that I just finished the game again, I think there might be a funny message in the last cinematic. It's just ironic how the Bonne's, Roll, and the rest of them are trying to get to Elysium, or heaven...
In that case, I figure it's more or less a recovery mission to get Megaman, as they show no intention of actually wanting to stay there. Although I'd really like to know how Data got down... |
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Post by Pitch on Jan 1, 2010 0:11:23 GMT -5
May God's blessing be upon you, my Digger friend. Even though you
do so in self-defense, it must be hard on you to kill so many innocent
Reaverbots. Let me pray for you. I will require a donation, however. Nothing about this seems particularly sinister. It's like anything really; they just needed a reusable place you could go to make donations to restore your reputation. If that's not enough, consider this: [If you don't make a donation]: Oh...Well, God is with you always,
regardless. Please come again.
Although the bit about the reaverbots is interesting. Reminds me of this quote from Legends 1: (Inside Clozer Woods Subgate)
Roll: Hey, MegaMan...Have you ever wondered where the Reaverbots came from? I
mean, who made them, and why?
(elevator starts lowering)
Roll: You know, we go around doing digs all over the place, but...Is it right?
It's almost like stealing...
I always found that quote interesting. Even though we basically know what's really going on by the end of Legends 2.
@buster Cannon BTW, you may want to look at Rule #4, bullet point #5. |
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Post by Buster Cannon on Jan 1, 2010 4:09:53 GMT -5
I was more or less pointing at the fact that the priest considers reaverbot life sacred (I sure don't). It does bring an interesting parallel to the aforementioned MML1 quote, what with digging being compared to stealing.
[If you don't make a donation]: Oh...Well, God is with you always,
regardless. Please come again.
Well, there's always this quote:
[If you don't have enough zenny]: I'm terribly sorry, but...It seems you
don't have enough zenny. Please come again.
It seems kind of cold for him to refuse to even start a conversation with you just because your pockets are a little empty, although I agree with it being less of a 'sinister' aspect and more of a gameplay thing.
Well, I was more or less trying to clarify the fact that I was responding to both posts with one paragraph; I'd hardly say there wasn't a good reason for it. I always interpreted that rule in the sense of quoting an entire post just to respond to one sentence of it, when you easily could've trimmed the quote to fit the one sentence you were referring to.
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Post by Pitch on Jan 1, 2010 5:01:22 GMT -5
Even that line really isn't bad. He says he's “terribly sorry” after all. He seems like a rather nice guy. There's always the possibility he's secretly a pirate, though. That would've blown my mind.
Ah, and I got the reason for your quote, Buster Cannon, I was just borrowing it for my own post. I meant to say something or other about that... but I can't remember what. x.x
#offtopic @buster Cannon When it's the post directly before your own, there's not much reason to quote the whole thing. (the post appears twice in a row!) It just doesn't seem to require that much clarification. (IMO, if you're replying to a whole post, it would be simpler to just link to it — but that's just my opinion) I only brought it up 'cause I've seen you do that a few times in the past few days/weeks.
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Post by chefwaffles on Jan 1, 2010 6:40:11 GMT -5
I can't help but add this in this thread: I just think Elysium is very weird. Especially the Residential Area. And the music in the last hallway creeps me out.
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