MML's graphics question

[Blues]

As we all know, Mega Man Legends didn't have great graphics, even when it came out in 1998. Now, I know a few other games from that same year, and, compared to those games, MML doesen't look too bad. My question is, what was the game with the best graphics in 1998? What games did people compare Legends' graphics to?

[Dashe]

The best graphics of 1998 belonged to the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The fact that MML and OOT were released in the same year contributed a lot to the former's financial failure. I actually like MML's sound better in all honesty; I own the Ocarina of Time soundtrack and it's just not as catchy.

[Blues]

Eh, I played both games (OoT is cool!), and they don't seem that far apart, graphics wise. Still, it's a shame they came out in the same year. And I find the catchiness of the two's soundtracks not that far apart, though as a Legends fan, MML music get stuck in my head more often.

[Goopygoo, Lord of the Whilst]

Sort of like UHF, Weird Al's movie. It came out alongside Batman, and Indianna Jones (I think) Unfortunately, UHF didn't do too well. I've never cared for any game like I care for the Legends Series. In fact, I'll play Final Fantasy X and cringe at the regular cutscenes, but will look at Megaman Legends and have no problem with it.

Gah, why all the name changing? I can barely tell who's who anymore!

[mirak]

Oot gained more popularity because, to start with, was a total revolution of the Zelda series.
2, it had a lot of special editions with the signature of Miyamoto (i got one ) and golden catridges. (Because people gets amazed at golden paint, they have an affinition to it. )
Besides, there was this special edition in wich ganon's blood was red, not green.

Megaman didn't had that type of appeal, to begin with, it was not megaman X so it wasn't 2D or side scroller wich was the 'hip', didn't had anything special and the game is too short.
That and other reasons involving companies and advertisement and yadda yadda, i'm tired of typing stuff.

Goopygoo, Lord of the Whilst: I'm still me!

[Frankenpetey]

I don't know about competition for the PS1 version, since I only had an N64. Oot has already been mentioned, but Banjo-Kazooie came out in 1998. I remember, because those were the only two carts I could afford that entire year. BK was quite good-looking, too. Very bright and cartoony, and the animation looked natural and sort of bouncy. By comparison, the models in MML are sort of clunky and stiff. On the first playthrough, MML really reminded me of Tomb Raider in that respect. Oo-err...

I think what spoiled MML's graphics for me, besides those two games, was Jet Force Gemini. By the time I got around to MML in late 1999, I'd just beaten Jet Force, which is one of the prettiest N64 games around (in my opinion, anyway). The Main Gate's stark white creepiness just doesn't hold up compared to Mizar's Palace. Look at that reflective marble floor splattered with alien giblets and tell me I'm wrong. The soundtrack was gorgeous as well; MML's music was a letdown after the Eschebone and S.S. Anubis themes...

What MML did have going for it was the animation in the characters' faces. Since most N64 games didn't have room for voice acting, there was no real reason for the wide range of facial expressions that the MML characters could pull off. This made the cutscenes far and away superior to nearly every other N64 cutscene, which were mostly just characters standing around dumbly while dialogue boxes clicked by...

What Mir@k hinted at is true, too. MML's ad campaign was absolutely horrible. I only saw that pointless, confusing commercial once, and I still remember it. And not in a good way.

[Dashe]

Woah, I almost forgot about JFG! That game was gorgeous, and it got less sequels than MML did. In fact, it didn't get any, nor did it ever get remade. I completely agree about the soundtrack (but I think the Rith Essa Mine track was better than both Eschebone and S.S. Anubis). In fact, any game developed by Rare in that era is almost guaranteed to have an amazing soundtrack.

But I digress. Mega Man did have the competition beat in the cutscene department, at least in that generation. It kind of makes me wonder why Zelda did so well when stacked up against beautiful games like Banjo-Kazooie and Jet Force Gemini---oh, wait, it's Zelda. Never mind. It doesn't need quirky anime-style cutscenes or soundtrack-worthy music (to be honest, if I hadn't bought the soundtrack for two dollars, I probably wouldn't have bothered) or ah-ma-zing-ly astounding graphics. The name says it all.

[Blues]

Yeah...isn't OoT considered one of the best Zelda games of all time? That would explain a lot, especially since a lot of people didn't originally like Legends becasuse it "wasn't Megaman." I wonder where those people are today...they're probably playing ZX.

[JMC47]

Oot had much better gameplay than MML, was a longer game, and typically was more enjoyable. It just had more meat to it than MML had to offer. OoT seriously lacked personality though, and even though cutscenes were astounding in some ways, they lacked the punch that MML's voice acted cut scenes were able to portray. I also agree with the music in MML being better.

Now, lets look at this from a technical perspective. 1998 was the year Metal Gear Solid was released if I remember correctly, and that blows both of the games graphics to... well you know where. Now the thing is MML had its anime style, Zelda had its... uh... style, and MGS was realistically styled. MML had primitive 3D explosions, MGS had sprite explosions that looked quite nice, and Zelda I don't remember, so they probably weren't right. Zelda has a more dynamic world, with night and day, while MGS and MML follow a more structured path, with it being night or day when its supposed to. MML sticks to day period. Cut scenes in MGS are amazing, the animation was top notch, and they just blew my mind with such an impact that no other game has yet to do break me. Playing it on my PSP with popstation, it has the same impact today (making my eyes water up on the Sniper wolf scene near the end) as it did back in 1998. Zelda went without Voice Actors, but some cut scenes got the point across, but some characters came across flat, and some just didn't work. Ganondorf's laugh is always fun though. MML had good voice actors, and the cut scenes had an oomph to them. I still think that presentation in MML is under done though. The low resolution textures and clipping problems compared to foot prints in the snow on MGS. Also in many of MMLs larger cut scenes, they replace various models with sprites! That shows the limitations of the engine, not being able to handle 30 characters on screen without screeching to a halt.

Moodwise is tougher. The games all use graphics to create mood in the Ruins/Dungeons/Underground base, and they all do a great job. MML genuinely scared me back in the day. Watching for a reaverbot around a corner in a dark ruin with low health was fun. MGS on the other hand had you sneaking around a highly detailed (for its time) military base, complete with bathrooms! It really felt as though you were in a functioning military base, with all the essential pieces. Zelda felt like a world. A large lake, a big city, a small town, and tons of places to explore. It felt huge.

Finally, there has to be the "moment". The moment in which the graphics have you at awe. Now, in Zelda thats going to be several spots, I'd pick one, but it would be too hard of a decision. MML would come down to a few pieces... perhaps Bruno, special effects during the Juno fight? Though neither of them compare to Metal Gear Rex in MGS. I mean holy cow... when you climb it its just amazing. I was at awe at the details with it. I couldn't believe they put this in a video game. I actually had the same feeling in MGS2 when I saw Metal Gear Ray, though less so than Rex.

I might as well argue on sound like everyone else. MGS has a perfect sound track for the game it is. Zelda has a typical Koji Kondo sound track, though nothing catches my ears out of place... though few truly are great. The ones that are though, are some of the best there are. MML on the other hand, has one of the most balanced, best sound tracks I've ever heard. It takes the cake when it comes to music.

Well seeing as how length and advertising were argued... I'll also put my two cents there too.

Length wise, MGS was 3 - 8 hours max if you were a good gamer, same with MML. Now, lets say you go through and do a 100%, or a perfect run of MGS, then you have maybe 10 - 20 hours. I'm not counting upgrading, just finding everything. Ocarina of time on the other hand, I've never found everything. But to give you a rough estimate, it took me well over 70 hours to collect every little thing in Wind Waker, and considering its mostly water I'd have to say to get everything (without a guide or previous knowledge mind you) would take well over 100 hours in OoT.

Advertising for MGS I don't remember, my dad got it though, so the advertising must have worked. MML I never saw advertising. I saw the word MegaMan and picked it up. This was most likely a while after its release. Zelda on the other hand, I had its date down from months before. I counted down its release date... but wasn't able to buy it as my family went through rough times. I was able to borrow it though. Its just the fact that some games will sell based on name. Even though I think the game selling was deserved due to its excellence, it still is a bit unfair to have some games predisposed to selling well while others have to fight to make a name. Though I guess thats all part of the marketing.

If you have read this far into my post... wow. If you skipped to the bottom shame on you. The only way to remove the shame is to just agree with me.

[Frankenpetey]

Ah, Rith Essa! That was a good one. Eschebone probably sticks in my head more because it took me so many tries to kill those stupid mantids at the end. That's what I get for giving all the homing missle upgrades to Juno... (Yay, topic drift!)

OoT also had the benefit of an intuitive control scheme. I can still pick it up and play it after nine years. JFG worked well enough, but the learning curve was pretty steep. The less said about Legends' control scheme, the better (holding down the R and Z buttons to turn? Crappy auto-aim? Wonky camera? Kill it with fire!).

I remember that 'it isn't Megaman' tripe. That's what happens sometimes when a game strays too far from a comfortable formula. It was 3d, it didn't have an obvious place in the MM timeline, and a lot of conventions like discreet levels, robot masters, and themed weapons were missing. (There was also the valid argument that the games would have been great even if Megaman had been replaced with a generic digger, making him superfluous.)

Of course, in that generation, a lot of the complaints probably stemmed from the fact that Legends wasn't filled with over-the-top teen angst and electric guitars. X was very popular at the time, if you'll recall.

[Dashe]

Calling Mega Man Legends different from Mega Man is just like calling The Wind Waker (and every other game with the cel-shaded Link in it) different from the other Zelda games. It happened, but now there are very few people around who still mentally refuse to accept the Wind Waker as a true Zelda game (note: I'm one of them. It may have had the sound effects and weapons but it just didn't feel like Zelda). That didn't stop me from acknowledging that it was a *very* good game. It just didn't feel like a Zelda game to me, and still doesn't. That's probably what Classic Mega Man/Mega Man X fans thought of Legends. Just because something isn't what you're used to doesn't automatically make it bad, just a little different.

JMC, your post made me want to go give Metal Gear Solid a try. I never even thought to pick it up back in '98.

[JMC47]

Wind Waker is my favorite Zelda... this is spam unless I type sappy response... uh... I liked it best actually.

YOUR POST WAS OFF TOPIC *Deletes*

Oh crap... I don't have that power...

Anyway, give MGS a try, one of the best games ever made period. I play it to this day when I get as chance, its just that awesome.

[Staulmaster]

justinc said:

Anyway, give MGS a try, one of the best games ever made period. I play it to this day when I get as chance, its just that awesome.

True dat, true dat. Its incredibly well-detailed.

As for the topic itself. There's not much I can say that's already been said, and I didn't really get a chance to read all your posts in their entirety, but I do agree mostly with what you all have to say.

I've seen you all mentione various games that came out at the same time such as B-K, JFG, Oot, MGS and such, which indeed left MML out in the cold.

I don't think anyone's mentioned a certain popular playstation game that came out at the same time...a certain RPG made by a certain company...

Well, before Square-Enix was indeed...Square-Enix, and gone by the name of 'Squaresoft' they had made a very popular RPG by the name of 'Final Fantasy VII', and statistics showed that its sold slightly more than Ocarina of Time. Even though I find Ocarina is 1000x better, it still isn't something to neglect.

Final Fantasy 7 was another 'top notch' game that Megaman Legends had to compete with. And while MML had cutesy graphics, a somewhat simple story and somewhat simplistic gameplay, FF7 had a very deep and supposedly engaging storyline backed up with a somewhat complex battle system.

But, to get to the point in question. Graphics-wise...They're almost on par with each other. I personally find FF7 graphics to be somewhat sub-par even for a game of that era. And for all of those saying that FF graphics are 'realistic', they're far from it. They're as anime-ish as MML, except without the cel-shading and exagerated expressions.

Basically, FF7 was more popular than MML because of its gameplay and story, but the graphics should never have changed anything since I find they're on the same page. In fact, as other people here have said, OoT had much better graphics, I'd even go as far to say that they were better than the vast majority of PS1 games.

The way I see it is:

Best graphics: OoT
Overrated graphics: FF7
My favourite graphics: MML