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Post by Handlebar-Orion X. on Jul 14, 2013 19:19:02 GMT -5
I'm sure a lot of you already know about this, but I feel it deserves it's own thread. www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=485375448203368&set=a.149346488472934.36493.149316248475958&type=1Now, getting it to work was kinda tricky. I had to triple tap Enter on the title screen to actually play it. Plus, this is only a demo so these are probably just early glitches. But when it works, it really works! It's smooth, it's hard as balls like the classic series, and if you can get the sound running it sounds great. Give it a shot! |
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Post by satoh on Jul 15, 2013 22:13:55 GMT -5
Your computer needs to be set to Japanese locale. That, or you could use applocale, but that never works for me. Thus, I'm not going to play it... ... ... ... A 2D Classic-styled game, really? Is that the best they can do? I could rant for about an hour, but THIS is not the direction I would expect from a DASH fangame. People should get out of their comfort zone and try making 3D games sometimes. 8-Bit is cool, I grew up with it. I still play a lot of 8-bit or 8-bit styled games... BECAUSE NO ONE IS FUCKING MAKING ANYTHING ELSE! Okay, okay, I'm going to stop. Though I would give it a try if it would work on a regular English Windows. Its not as simple as that... the amount of work involved in making a 3D game is like the work involved in a 2D game squared... You'd be tempted to think that if you can do 2D programming you can apply those same concepts with just 'one more D' but it doesn't work that way. Currently the easiest to use 3D game platform is Unity, and it can be 'balls-hard' (to paraphrase Handlebar-Orion X.) to even make the character move in a straight line without gravity deciding it hates you and the solidity of the floor doesn't matter anymore...and that's before you add jumping. And sure, you can say that sprites take a long time to make, but if you're doing 8-bit you really only need three or four for most things, and almost no one who does this kind of thing is an even slightly decent modeler, and there are no free models worth using either. To put it another way, yes, people should try doing a 3D game once in a while, just to remember that it IS HARDER, and isn't really worth the extra work when you wanted classic Megaman 8-bit anyway. Its also harder to make a 3D game look good, which you might think is backwards... but in the end realistic physics LOOK TERRIBLE for this kind of game, and getting a model or lighting setup to look right takes about as long as making a demo link in the link, unless you've been doing it for years and know all the tricks. That said, it is always nice to see a 3D game someone has made, that looks good and plays well... I just... so far haven't seen one outside of people who already do it for a living. EDIT: and also I had no issues running the demo in applocale. I seriously don't know why it doesn't come standard. |
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Post by Dashe on Jul 16, 2013 9:35:08 GMT -5
I think 2D's alright. Even mock 8-bit can be interesting. I'm just really, REALLY tired of seeing the Mega Man 1-6 visual style specifically! Everyone and their mom is using it.
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Post by satoh on Jul 16, 2013 12:48:48 GMT -5
You are neglecting the fact that no Legends 3 will be "the" Legends 3.
As it stands there are, right now, no less than 13 "Megaman Legends 3" games being made.
And I'm sure there's more... that's just the ones I've run across.
To put it in even more perspective, the original MML3 looked like it wasn't going to be a fitting end to the series, what with all the focus on "hey look we made edgy looking cool guys and the story's really gonna be about them because Megaman is boring."
Even the character concept behind Barret and Aero was weak... they're part of a hated biker gang that's always edging around the police... for doing... oddjobs...that people genuinely need done... and being... entirely wholesome.... but they do it on BIKES.
That's fine. That's about the same as Amelia being Barrel's long lost assistant and suddenly rising to power over an entire island despite being a totally ineffectual leader who leaves all her concerns to a child. Who is also a stranger.
But, oh wait... Megaman Legends didn't have any points where you spent the day running around as Amelia...
What I'm getting at, is that no MML3 to date would ever have ended up being a proper finale to the series.
More than that, it's extremely silly to think that a fanmade game -should- ever be a fitting end to the series.
Fangames are fanservice by definition, and fanservice is rarely quantifiable as being 'a fitting' anything to a series.
It's there to scratch an itch, to amuse you, but not to impress you.
In the end though, this is a discussion about a 2D balls-hard classic MM style game that, while having a pretty tight engine, is not very fun to play and has pretty lousy control dynamics.
It looks good, the movement and jumping feel pretty good, which give it some massive points because the number one complaint I have with new platformers is that the jumping utterly sucks 90% of the time, but where it loses those points is that Barret (stepping aside from the point that he's not just an NPC I can ignore) can't hurt practically anything with his shots, including Horokko, which by all rights are some of the weakest reaverbots around... and his punch, which can hurt them, requires you to get right up in touch-damage range just to use it... but you can't, because your damage frames are playing and you can't move.
It's a neat game that shows a lot of work went into it, but its hardly anything anyone should be taking so seriously as to consider it an official end.
This series has survived over 10 years on the merit of 2 PSX games no one's ever even heard of, what are the chances a proper MML3 game would ever be enough?
Megaman 8 was "the end."
Megaman X 6 was "the end."
and both of those series continued because people just couldn't let it go...
The difference with MML is that capcom never really -liked- the idea of a 3D action-exploration RPG Megaman.
Keiji Inafune is largely responsible for what we love in both of the originals, and I doubt another could ever recapture that even if they hadn't canceled MML3 specifically to spite him. (Because anytime a company has to come right out and say THIS CANCELATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INAFUNE QUITTING, you know it has everything to do with it.)
It's pointless to get upset about MML fangames not being what you want them to be, because unless you're making it yourself, it never will be.
Slapping the word MML3 on something pretty much means "this is a spinoff."
But anyway I'm getting side tracked again.
A 2D MML game is something I've toyed around with in my head many times, though I've never been a fan of the Classic look, mainly because the sprites, even for their time, were ghastly.
This game clearly breaks the 8-bit palette, and it probably had to, but it could have been done better, choosing slightly less specific colors for the enemies, rather than gong for the exact ones used on the original textures.
The enemies are somewhat interesting, even though there seem to be only 2 of them. However, they aren't the enemies that we are familiar with despite their appearance. I don't think I've ever been so terrified of Horokko since I tried doing a kick only 0HP run. (that lasted a very short time)
The enemies also spawn far too quickly and far too much in the initial area, completely wrecking the difficulty curve, which even the Classic MM games had a handle on. Classic MM had usually 3 enemies on the first screen... this game starts out that way, but before you can kill them, 10 more have appeared, and you'll probably not ever see past the edge of that pink building on the right.
One could argue that this is because MM Classic's gameplay is mostly spent trying to cleverly avoid enemies rather than killing everything on the screen, but this is MML. MML gives you rewards for killing things, and therefore it is in your best interest to commit genocide on a ruin.
You could argue that this is not MMClassic and therefor the number of enemies on a screen shouldn't be limited to the NES upper enemy limit... but you'd still be wrong, because even MML had a fair pacing between enemies, with rarely ever more than 3 on the screen at a time, except Mirumijee which are harmless unless you walk right up to them.
You could argue that the lock-on feature should help you eliminate the swarm of enemies, but it doesn't. Most of the time I didn't even know it was there, and even once I did figure it out, it spent most of its time looking onto enemies that are both level with me (thus not needing a lockon to hit) and also immune to my shots.
From an engine aspect I'd give this game a 7 out of 10, with 10 being somewhere below "I would pay for this" and 1 being "Go home and cry in shame"
The jumping and movement handle pretty well, but the punching hit detection is atrocious. Lockon is nice, when it isn't just picking a completely random enemy.
For the gameplay I'd give it a hesitant 5 out of 10,
Its hard to really play a game that has complex controls of a platformer, with the number of enemies in a manic shooter. The controls for the Lockon feature and melee attacks are poorly handled.
Lockon should be something I do with my attack hand, rather than my moving around hand. There is no real control over the melee attacks aside from being really close and pressing attack, not that
you'll actually hit anything.
Visually I'd give it a 7. It is pretty well done, but some of the things just don't look very good, and its not because they needed more bits.
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Post by Dashe on Jul 16, 2013 18:02:58 GMT -5
Yeah, they're definitely not using this as a substitute for Legends 3. It's more of an awareness-raiser than anything, and awareness throughout the gaming community is important. This is also definitely not a genuine Capcom project, they've just, if I'm understanding things correctly, taken on Tomozawa and Ishikawa as freelancers to assist in production. IIRC, neither of them are Capcom employees anymore, so even if anybody uses the "official Legends dev vets are working on it!" line to justify its officiality, they're off the mark.
Of course, I'm pretty sure it was the suits' idea to get a 3D Mega Man game on the market in the first place. Something like that or a stipulation by Sony that they couldn't release a 2D installment unless they had a 3D installment. I forget if I heard it was a Sony Suit Intervention or a Capcom suit one, but I digress. I wouldn't be surprised if the story itself was slated to be an original IP that got a Mega Man theme shoehorned into it early in production, but I can't be too sure about that. It's something I'd really like to ask Inafune or the devs if given the chance, though.
How many shots does it take to get rid of a Zakobon, 4-5? I'm pretty sure that's actually how long it took in the real Legends games, too. It could be they were trying to go for a comparable system, but since it's 2D and there's less room to dodge these guys, it makes the fight noticeably harder. If they plan on making Legends-style buster upgrades, then that'd be fine, since you're not stuck with the same little pea shooter and your special weapons the whole way through the way you are in most of the Classic games. Either way, directly translating the enemies' stamina from the 3D games into 2D is going to result in a massive difficulty spike, especially if enemies stay as concentrated as they are here throughout the game. I don't even like dealing with Gorubeshu in 3D, but if that thing keeps the same amount of HP in this it'd be a regular nightmare.
In any case, having that third dimension gives you more room to evade attacks. I'm personally still rooting for TLT. That'd make a bigger statement about Legends fans' passion for the series, I'm sure.
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Post by Rockman Striker on Jul 21, 2013 22:11:18 GMT -5
So that's why they need founds? They could have thought of something less recurrent, and more awesome. I wouldn't pay for that kind of game, that's the kind of fan game that's fun just because it's a free spin off, now if they're asking for donations they could afford to hire better programmers or 3d modelers.
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Post by satoh on Jul 21, 2013 22:49:17 GMT -5
So that's why they need founds? They could have thought of something less recurrent, and more awesome. I wouldn't pay for that kind of game, that's the kind of fan game that's fun just because it's a free spin off, now if they're asking for donations they could afford to hire better programmers or 3d modelers. I don't think most fangames actually "hire" anyone... I am quite convinced that all 'donations' that go to fangames simply line the pockets of the webmaster. It's one bit of questionable legality to accept donations for a fangame project... It's another thing entirely to actually pay someone to illegally use IP... And it's highly unlikely anyone that actually does said 'hired' jobs would accept a paying job as such... unless they really just don't care or know any better about the legal issues. In the end though, any modeler's product will be rather expensive, (for example, a single gun from a modern game costs around $800 US, roughly. This doesn't account for discount model websites that sell stuff for $5, as that is all amateur work, and a lot of it is worth more than is being charged...) reason being that art is a skill and requires time, just like any other job. More than that, quality art of any type is well above the average person's ability, meaning art is more than a mundane skill, its a special skill, meaning that it is worth more than minimum wage for example. For this reason, it is a very BAD idea to hire anyone to work on a game that you can't sell. You will quickly run out of money and have no way to make it back. Fangames = strictly unpaid work |
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Post by Rockman Striker on Jul 22, 2013 11:38:33 GMT -5
I understand satoh, my point is that almost every fan game is free, mine's free too and it will still be free when finished, I'll never ask for any donation for any piece of software I make; I just don't think it's fair; unless they need the money to buy some kind of software or license that's okay, if they charge for a physical copy it's OK. But that's just my opinion. |
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proudone
Miroc
Sokkoban sounds like a Reaverbot. Pushing boxes.
Posts: 54
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Post by proudone on Jul 23, 2013 1:41:48 GMT -5
I understand satoh, my point is that almost every fan game is free, mine's free too and it will still be free when finished, I'll never ask for any donation for any piece of software I make; I just don't think it's fair; unless they need the money to buy some kind of software or license that's okay, if they charge for a physical copy it's OK. But that's just my opinion. Sadly that's not how copyright works. Capcom would most likely take offence in someone who isn't them cashing in on one of their IPs, even if its just indirectly. After all you wouldn't be buying the physical media for the physical media's sake and wouldn't support the developer if they didn't make a game you're already kind of involved in. |
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Post by satoh on Jul 23, 2013 14:10:55 GMT -5
I understand satoh, my point is that almost every fan game is free, mine's free too and it will still be free when finished, I'll never ask for any donation for any piece of software I make; I just don't think it's fair; unless they need the money to buy some kind of software or license that's okay, if they charge for a physical copy it's OK. But that's just my opinion. Sadly that's not how copyright works. Capcom would most likely take offence in someone who isn't them cashing in on one of their IPs, even if its just indirectly. After all you wouldn't be buying the physical media for the physical media's sake and wouldn't support the developer if they didn't make a game you're already kind of involved in. In other words, you wouldn't be buying it if it was a game called 'Superdude Stories 3' or 'Musicalguy HYPHEN 3.' Basically giving money for a fangame is quite literally the same as giving credit to the wrong person on purpose. Granted, I think Capcom deserves every hit they take to their wallet at this point... but there are laws in place in several countries (but not South Korea and some places in China) protecting the rights of the original creators of just about any art or media. (Seriously though, look at a few Chinese MMOs and you'll note that many of them have Megaman, Saber, Shrek, Sonic the Hedgehog, Batman, etc, etc, as characters and none of them have authorization for it... but because they don't recognize copyrights as a thing there, there's nothing that can be done about it) |
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Post by Loken on Aug 18, 2013 2:17:49 GMT -5
Not real enthused about a 2d MML3 BUT doesn't say that the original concept artist is making the cover and the original composer making a track for it? Honestly that's some of the coolest GMOTM news we've had in a while! I can't wait to check that stuff out!
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Post by redhoodzeroh on Sept 9, 2013 15:34:35 GMT -5
My only complaint is that this is a pc title, not 3ds. Many sites claimed, unknowingly, that this game would be on 3ds still, despite being a fan project. Sadly this isn't the case, and I really don't like pc gaming, and have a Mac anyway. I'm a console or portable fan. It's more of just a personal issue but it still bothers me, yet I'm glad this project is out there still.
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Post by Bean on Dec 18, 2013 8:29:50 GMT -5
There was a second trailer released on Mega Man's anniversary yesterday. The fan base really loves their Mega Man. Yep. |
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Post by Dashe on Aug 3, 2014 13:06:22 GMT -5
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