Paragon
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Post by Paragon on Jan 9, 2005 15:08:39 GMT -5
Hey, everyone! It's Paragon! This thread is asking you whether you think Juno's theme song should stay the same, sound more godlike (i.e chanting his name like Sephiroth) or sound more final enemylike. Post your thoughts here!
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Post by feldinaut on Jan 9, 2005 15:43:35 GMT -5
Well it's been a while since I've played the actual battle, so I'm going on memory here. I think a classical theme was played which is perfect because Juno is such a classy guy! Anything more than that I don't think would fit him... He's not an "ALL POWERFUL!!11~" type of guy... Just a Bureaucratic Model. But an awesome one. I believe Data even mentions he's not built for combat. It fits.
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Post by JMC47 on Jan 9, 2005 19:35:57 GMT -5
That Music was made by Bach or someone way back in time, and I thought it fit the Juno battle very well, almost too well.
All that I know is that it was one of those moments that the music should of been used, most games that would of sounded wierd for the final boss, but for MM Legends, it fit... I know do not know why.
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Paragon
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Post by Paragon on Jan 9, 2005 19:42:07 GMT -5
Personally, I think he should have a more godlike theme song. Like Sephiroth from FF7. *indistinct chanting then "Juno" repeat*
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 9, 2005 20:29:02 GMT -5
Well, from what I can tell, the “JunoBattle” track (listed as “Juno - Last Battle Physique” on the OST) was by J.S. Bach Both are similar, and I can’t remember what song each is based on (I think one was Bach’s Fugue… but there were a lot of those so that isn’t much of a clue). Anyways, I like Juno’s themes as they are. Chanting themes or big dramatic themes just wouldn’t fit the suave Juno. Unlike people such as Sephiroth who try to destroy and/or enslave the world Juno is just a humble bureaucrat doing what he was told to do. Most bosses have serious ego problems and are always saying that they’re the strongest and seem to be dumbfounded when they lose, but not Juno. He never said he was stronger, he actually said he expected to lose (he was only distracting you so that Eden would be ready). Good ol’ Juno just kept smiling after he died. Simply put, his theme fits very well. Just try switching his theme with Sephiroth’s. It just wouldn’t work would it? Oh well, we can only wait till MML3 when Juno is somehow resurrected and kills MM. Let’s all root for Megaman Juno, Bureaucratic model 3 rd class, authorization #8677… www.chudahs-corner.com/soundtracks/cpca1003.htmlAlright, Sephiroth’s theme with Juno’s name in it. See why it wouldn’t work? [CHORUS] Estuans interius ira vehementi Estuans interius ira vehementi Juno Juno [REPEAT CHORUS] Sors immanis Et inanis Sors immanis Et inanis [REPEAT CHORUS] Veni, veni, venias, Ne me mori facias Veni, veni, venias, Ne me mori facias [REPEAT VERSE] Veni, veni, venias, (Gloriosa) Ne me mori facias (Generosa) Veni, veni, venias, (Gloriosa) Ne me mori facias (Generosa) [REPEAT VERSE] Juno Juno This comes from www.animelyrics.com/game/ffvii/ff7owa.htm
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Post by JMC47 on Jan 9, 2005 23:18:13 GMT -5
Maybe I'll try that out in a private Beta of MMLE, remake the Juno battle, insert different music... never mind.
Juno is the all time coolest boss ever, and deserves the music he got. Could anyone imagine fighting Ganon in Ocarina of time with the Juno battle music... that would be wierd none the less.
Anyway, you should make a poll asking if the music was the best choice for the battle, and put the three choices.
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Paragon
Ganburi
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I've been gone a long time, haven't I? :P
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Post by Paragon on Jan 10, 2005 7:41:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but Juno's music makes him sound like Dracula or something.
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Post by JMC47 on Jan 10, 2005 13:32:59 GMT -5
No, you don't understand do you? Dracula is evil, Juno isn't. Juno's boss music is probably his office (or the elysian version of that) or wherever he does his job, besides the ruins. The music is sophisticated, because Juno is a highly intelligent Humanoid/Robot (Won't argue about what he is, but he obviously has a robot body) That doesn't originally intend to kill MegaMan, actually thanking him for awakening him, and we all know the rest.
The music does not make Juno seem like dracula at all.
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Paragon
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Post by Paragon on Jan 10, 2005 13:34:48 GMT -5
Ok. Another question, though. Why does Juno have such powerful weapons if he only has weapons for self-defense?
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Post by JMC47 on Jan 10, 2005 14:57:15 GMT -5
That is probably because he is the final boss of the game
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 10, 2005 16:08:27 GMT -5
Yup, the simple reason that Juno is strong is that he is the final boss. It would be pointless to make a weak final boss.
The more complex answer is that Juno not holding anything back. He had been given an order and he was willing to sacrifice himself to fulfill his commands. Simply put, he did not fear death and therefore was able to fight with a vigor that MM couldn’t match. Also, Juno was able to stay calm, cool, and collected (at least in his first form… in his second form his voice changed and he seemed somewhat irritated. Also, since all he ha to do was make a back-up of himself, death wasn’t quite so scary).
Another explanation is that MM is weaker than he was before the battle with Sera where his original body was nearly destroyed. Since he had to be “reborn” in a sense, his new body lost his previous body’s strength. He had to regain the strength on his own, but working as a digger didn’t accelerate his power as much as… whatever he did when he was part of the system. (I can just see Juno trying to get through gym class… swimming… push-ups… but still…).
Of course, if MM is a machine then this leaves some strange gaps. If the body he has now and his past body are indeed one in the same then he should have been far stronger than he is if he was a machine, especially considering that there are some diggers that are probably better and stronger than him. A machine can’t really lose its strength or, for that matter, gain strength in the same sense as a human could, so going on a dig would do nothing for him unless he was not a machine like some believe. A first class purifier would be the best of the best in Elysium’s army (although some like to think that there may be more types of units, it’s doubtful. More classes, but not types). Still, since he was able to defeat Sera, a Mother unit, he was indeed strong. A Mother unit would be far stronger than their subordinates, so for MM to beat her proves his strength, and yet Juno posed a fairly good challenge. As things are, Juno could have nearly defeated Sera, but this makes little sense since he was but a 3rd class and she was a Mother Unit.
The real reason is simply that they’re the final bosses. Still, if you wanted you could just say that MM kept the strength from the last game therefore making it so that although the enemies didn’t seem any harder they were actually far stronger. You could also say that Sera just got rusty after being locked up for so long… Still, it’s best not to think too hard about such things… yeah, I never take my own advice… and as usual I got off track…
(As for more on Juno’s theme, it is simply done because he was classy and stuff. Remember, the Sulphur-Bottom theme is also a classical song (four seasons if memory serves.). It could just be that Tomozawa liked classical music… but the theme did fit the sophisticated Werner von Bleucher. And something else that’s weird… why is it spelled “Sulpher” bottom everywhere (i.e. the MMLS site)… the word is sulphur, like it says on the side of the ship, “Sulphur-Bottom” … yes, I’m a grammar nazi till the end…)
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Post by Buster Cannon on Jan 10, 2005 18:06:48 GMT -5
Juno's music is fine. Sure, it's not your traditional boss music, but when I first heard it, it seemed to fit just fine.
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Post by JMC47 on Jan 10, 2005 23:33:19 GMT -5
Gustaff Glyde, shouldn't we continue our arguement/friendly conversation at the what is MM thread again, since the truce was only for a limited time
once again a topic has completely drifted from its original question, so long live another arguement.
When MegaMan fought Sera the first time (since this battle will be depicted in MMLE, I did some research on it) I believe that Yuna sort of watched them fight and broke in at the right moment to trap them both, most likely where Sera was off guard. Sera probably wasn't alone in the battle either, where as in MML2 she was. In MML2 Geetz also tried to pull something on Sera before the final form, like delaying something or power draining, I don't remember.
Who actually said the Mother Units were meant for battle, they are just to manage stuff, thats why MegaMan was easily able to defeat her in MML2.
Oh yea, the Juno song was the right choice, simply because it sort of fit the tone and speed of the battle, don't you agree.
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Post by Bureaucratic Model 1-3 on Jan 11, 2005 0:06:31 GMT -5
You guys are crazy. Juno, as the head Bureaucratic Model, was endowed with the intelligence to run the computers, the the strength to contol them. It's not something that just occures to you, the thought of the Reaverbots trying to revolt but *it happens and you have to be prepared.
AND DARN IT! I told you people, Megaman is first class so his body is entirely synthetic/bio-chemical, Juno is third class so only a small fraction of him was synthetic 9(or we could say sinthetic, since he was planning on killing everybody... A man to respect, no doubt about that!) and Mother Units are... crazy... I don't know.
As for his music, I thought it was fine, even though he was evil, he was just doing what he was build to do, as opposed to trying to kill everybody for 'personal' reasons... *shudders* The stories I could tell...
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Post by GustaffGlyde on Jan 11, 2005 1:47:51 GMT -5
… curses… well JMC, you’ve gone and pointed out the stuff I missed.
I’ll start off by commenting on good ol’ Juno so as not to completely demolish the previous discussion. In a way, Juno felt no evil in his task. To him, carbons were products of the System. All they did was destroy the world around them whether it was by pollution, war, or just sheer stupidity. To him, they needed to be purged to keep this planet safe.
To Juno, the carbons are nothing more than talking plants. They were beings who lacked a soul and did nothing but foolish acts and chased after their own greed. To him, they were a corrupt blemish on Terra. He didn’t look at his task as being evil or inhumane. He was simply doing not only what he was told, but what he felt was best for Terra and the whole System.
You have to look at his actions from both sides. He was not evil, not really. His ideals and that of the system may not have been the best, but to him they were not evil. To us they appear to be because we only saw Juno as a mindless killing machine that would stop it nothing to kill off a few humans.
You see, carbons are only an imitation, a false human. They live, they die, and that is all that awaits them. Who knows what their purpose was. Possibly, they were created after that war with the Elder system as a way of repairing the damaged earth that had suffered during the period of war. When their job was complete, the Master decided to spare them for some reason and allow them to continue living on Terra. Still, these people soon began to grow angry at… wait… I’m going to stop myself this time. *slaps self* Bad GustaffGlyde. No more getting off track.
In short, Juno saw no trouble in killing these false beings since they lacked that which only a true natural human had, not to mention he saw only the endless lust and corruption of the carbons. To him, he was doing the world a favor. Most of us would see the good side of carbons and probably couldn’t bring ourselves to do such a thing, but still…
Of course maybe he was just a mindless drone who did nothing but obey the system… BM 1-3, you can put down that lovely collection of pointy and blunt objects, I was only kidding.
Now for that completely unrelated bit on Sera… ____________________________________________ As for the first battle, she probably at least had Geetz with her and possibly some others, so this would make her considerably stronger. This would explain why Geetz was sealed away with Sera. The battle itself was probably rough considering it forced MM to be reset and left Sera without her clothing, but still.
In the MML2 battle, Gatz attempted to mess with Sera’s logic circuits which would apparently slow down her reaction time (in his words, “This unit will attempt to infiltrate Mother's logic circuits! There is no guarantee as to how effective such an action will be, but it should impair Mother's reaction time to some extent. This unit's powers are limited, but it shall assist you as much as possible). I certainly never noticed her slowing down but…
As for a mother unit being made for battle, they were and they weren’t. In other words, if we just take Sera without her first form armor and without Geetz then she probably wouldn’t be all that strong. But, with her armor she would be strong, at least as strong if not stronger than Juno (forgive me for such blasphemy. Nobody is stronger than Supreme ruler of all, Lord Juno). Also, I’d bet the armor wasn’t limited to Elysium like her second form was.
Now, the second thing is Sera’s power to become a “goddess” (at least that is what the carbons call Yuna and Sera.) in her second form. She can, as they said in the game, only do this on Elysium. This is her ultimate form that clearly had no other purpose than to destroy those who opposed the wishes of the System, not to mention she would be the Master’s trump card for defending Elysium if a strong aberrant ever came along. It would only make sense that she would be strong which still leaves the question of how in the end she wasn’t much stronger than MM unanswered. I guess Gatz must have done more damage than we originally thought. Sera was running around laughing like a little kid so who knows.
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