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Post by Pitch on Sept 10, 2009 14:35:16 GMT -5
A few more thoughts now that I have some time: As Buster Cannon pointed out, a jump with teh jetskates would be sweet. Might also be cool if you could include the speed-up/slow-down via with the up and down arrows (or forward/backward). Awesome³ would be to include the speed-up/slow-down and have it impact the height/distance of the jump after going over a ledge! </polish!> I'm not sure whether I should even bother mentioning it, but it would be nifty if you could revisit the DrillMan battle. (and other mini-bosses, or real bosses as the case may be in the future) Meant to mention it before, but I loved all the new graphics, especially the Flutter. Barrel looks nifty too. (I don't recall if he was in the original demo?) The stages looked great too. Any chance you'll ever release the sprite sheets and/or tilesets for these? Sound effects were slick too; I had about the same experience as Buster Cannon when I heard the Frongel. And the whole bit about unlocking/selecting TopMan's level, too — just about everything Buster Cannon said, really; awesome. I can't get my XBAWX controller to work with this. I thought joypad config' was standard in most of yours and Blyka's games, fab... That might be another feature you'd wanna add, if it's easily implemented. I might suggest using joytokey or a similar gamepad-to-keyboard program. Works brilliantly for me with my Xbox360 pad.
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Post by bdk336 on Sept 10, 2009 16:31:10 GMT -5
Ok I was a little too harsh on my first reply and I did like the demo. However I still stick with the comment about stuff going through walls, I know it requires some work on path finding for the homing enemies as well as simple collision physics for everything but one of the most frustrating things in a challenging game being homed in on by something that travels below the ground you walk on (and thus cannot be shot on a level field).
I agree with the checkpoint idea since you can't save in the demo and the only other thing that I really want to add is that it would be nice to have something to say that this is the end of the demo thanks for playing. Just so that I don't go searching for some way to continue when there is none.
Overall it's good, although I suggest you avoid forcing the player to farm zenny in the very first combat area of the actual game (in other words a short tutorial stage/boss is a good thing).
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Post by Pitch on Sept 10, 2009 16:53:01 GMT -5
Overall it's good, although I suggest you avoid forcing the player to farm zenny in the very first combat area of the actual game (in other words a short tutorial stage/boss is a good thing). This sounds like a good idea. Maybe give the lower level reavers (e.g., Horokko) less health. Of course, I kind of assumed you plan to do this anyway, and rather like how the demo forces encourages you to use the Buster Upgrades.
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Post by Buster Cannon on Sept 10, 2009 17:09:17 GMT -5
Overall it's good, although I suggest you avoid forcing the player to farm zenny in the very first combat area of the actual game (in other words a short tutorial stage/boss is a good thing). This sounds like a good idea. Maybe give the lower level reavers (e.g., Horokko) less health. Of course, I kind of assumed you plan to do this anyway, and rather like how the demo forces encourages you to use the Buster Upgrades. I actually finished the first boss off without any upgrades at all. Initially I was worried I would need them for the boss, but his pattern is really easy to pick up on, so it was no hassle. I did some serious grinding after I beat Drillman, however, only to find that there was nothing in Top Man's stage.
This. I seriously wish every game had some sort of 'boss rush' mode where you could re-fight the game's bosses. This could potentially be a nice bonus for finishing the game or something.
Drill Man's not really too hard to take out. The trick is to stay a safe distance away from him. When he dashes at you, just perform a well-timed jump and you'll get right over him. His mini-drill launcher can be avoided by initially standing under him. Watch the dust on the ground before the drills come back up so that you know where not to stand. Staying in the middle of the screen prevents him from coming down on you afterward.
Come to think of it, Drillman fights a lot like Gigabolt Man-O-War from Megaman X8...
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Post by fAB on Sept 10, 2009 19:50:44 GMT -5
Thanks guys, nothing beats the balance of encouraging words and good suggestions. ;D There's a lot to process here for just 24 hours...
First off, sorry it doesn't work for you duo. As Green mentioned, I don't think there's anything that can be done about it, but I hope you'll find a way to play it sometime, at a friend's house or something.
Unlike the last demo which was really rough and tossed together after just a few weeks of working on the game, I really put a lot more thought into the reaverbots and their difficulty for this one. I'm definitely with B-R-E-T, I want a game that's a challenge when it's new and eventually becomes pretty easy once you're used to it, not a game that's just tough enough on the first play through and a ridiculous piece of cake after that.
If you read the in-house discussions you quickly see that this takes place before MML1 when Megaman is 13, and I want his initial power level to reflect that. I do want the game to encourage people to upgrade if they need it, zenny farming if that's what it takes (which will obviously be more fun/meaningful once you can save it). There is one thing though that this demo does not reflect, and that's the fact that you will have 4 paths to explore right off the bat, not be forced to visit just one. Imagine starting up the game, you'll obviously want to visit all 4, right? Kill just a few reaverbots at each of them (you can walk directly back to town from the paths, in case some of you didn't catch on to that), and by the time you've been to all 4 you've already got enough to purchase a buster part if you so desire.
Having said that, the feeling of being stuck zenny farming right off the bat shouldn't be a concern, however I am very glad that it came up for the sake of an intro level suggestion. At first I didn't see any place to fit one in but after a lot of thought an idea eventually came to me. I didn't care much for the way the title screen jumps right into town anyway, so that's doubly good. It should start with action, like MML1 and MOTB (sorry MML2, putting out a fire doesn't count).
I'm getting pretty long-winded here, so I'll try to go over the rest more quickly.
Reaverbot size was already discussed before. I agree the 3D models probably weren't made perfectly to scale in the first place, but I have to go by some form of measurement. As I've also mentioned before, can't make things too tiny or there won't be enough pixels to work with on some of the smaller reavers.
If it wasn't already obvious, yes there shall be Jump Springs. They were taken out for the demo, but they've been in the game for months.
I have mixed feelings about the jet skates. I have it on my list to attempt the jumping off ledges ability. However, it might prove to be more trouble than it's worth, and there's also a part of me that thinks they shouldn't be better than the ones he gets in MML1. It's still up in the air.
Gamepad support, definitely. It should be a standard, and I'm glad you mentioned it B-R-E-T. I've added it to upcoming features on Digger's SPA page so people will know they can expect it.
For sound effects, if you play on the ePSXe emulator there's a sound plugin that lets you open a debugger. You can turn on or off whichever audio tracks you want, making it possible to have only the track with the desired sound effect playing. Immeasurably useful. I've acquired quite a collection of sounds already with more to come. I've been thinking I should put them up on the Arcade for public use sometime along with, yes, some of the sprites from the game. Don't know when though.
bdk, I'm having a hard time picturing the enemies or their bullets homing in on you from beneath the ground. ?_? Which ones are you referring to specifically?
About not having an "end" to the demo, my apologies. I didn't want to cut the game off with a "that's all folks" message, in case people had been saving up zenny and wanted to still buy and try the buster parts, etc. I thought the hype of getting to the Top Ruins only to discover you can't go in said it well enough.
Drill Man and all the other bosses and mini-bosses are supposed to be one-of-a-kind reaverbots, so it wouldn't work for another to come back after the path is beaten. I do have something planned that's sort of along the lines of Buster Cannon's "boss rush" idea. More on that later.
Thanks for commenting on the artwork, Buster Cannon. It's been up there for months but you're the first to mention it. XD Glad you like.
I have some questions of my own for people. First, what do you all think of the level length? Unsure, I just went with what seemed to be the average length of an NES Mega Man stage for the demo. I really want the game to have that Legends exploration feel so maybe they should be longer? Opinions appreciated.
Also, I've really gotten into making the custom music for the game, weaving Legends and Classic themes together. It's fun to work on, and I think it's really going to give the game it's own feel, but none of you have mentioned it yet (other than a quick lol at the intro). Thoughts, anyone? Do I suck that bad? XP
Pure coincidence. o.o I haven't touched the series since X5.
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Post by Pitch on Sept 10, 2009 20:21:35 GMT -5
If you read the in-house discussions you quickly see that this takes place before MML1 when Megaman is 13, and I want his initial power level to reflect that. That was intentional? I thought it was a typo. Krikey that means there's no chance we'll see the Bonnes. Ah well. I LOL'd. Jakkos can do damage after they've begun to fly through the floor, at which point you can no longer shoot them, and because of the (otherwise very nifty) layering, sometimes you can't see them. I was thinking just more along the lines of running into them at the end of the path again. (and theoretically always) Not so much running into them again later in the game. But, since you mentioned it, maybe after the path's been cleared, you can have it unlock a fork at the end, which leads to the boss, giving the player the option to face the battle again or just continue through.. Just a thought, really. I thought the level was a bit short, but perhaps you could just make the ruins longer than the paths. That would be a nifty effect, really. And the ruins are what you want to "explore" anyway. I didn't pay much attention to the music at the time, but I think it was good. I can't check now, though; I'm in class. >_< Sorry.
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Post by bdk336 on Sept 10, 2009 20:29:08 GMT -5
I like the music actually I just don't usually think that much about music unless it blows my mind or absolutely sucks.
I like what I'm hearing so far and it would be nice to have longer levels.
The other thing is I would love if you could put up the sound effects for us to use. I really didn't know how I'd get good sounds for explosions and the like (considering I want it to sound like legends) without using a gameshark to kill the music and record directly from the game. Also just a suggestion but adding in some of the shorter segments of voice acting (the actual sound bytes or your own recreations) such as "mission start", "here we go!", some of the stuff the bosses say mid-battle and all the adorable Servbot phrases would be a good way to add some flavor to games without simply ripping the dialogue (since these can be applied to many situations including as part of the introduction when you talk to someone or placing emphasis during conversation, or, of course, comic relief).
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duo
Gorubeshu
Posts: 261
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Post by duo on Sept 10, 2009 20:41:16 GMT -5
fab, I'm on linux for principle and aesthetics. We have a computer at home that runs windows, and I'll try it out as soon as I come back. Oh, it would be sooooo cool if you could put up those sound files. I would really appreciate it! I was trying to rip them myself. I wish I had more time to work on my game, but I have a capstone project for school that's taking up my free time. It sucks. Maybe this weekend, I hope!
Jet skates would be cool because the damage incurred from the loss of control would make up for the increased speed. You could make megaman slide when getting out of skate mode for extra game balancing.
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Post by Buster Cannon on Sept 10, 2009 23:30:58 GMT -5
I have a question, are there going to 'lives' in the game, or will the save feature kind of help in that area? I was kind of annoyed when dying had me restart from the very beginning, but I'm sure the save feature will work that one out.
The jumping off ledges thing should be left out. As things stand now, the Jet Skates are pretty bad to use in combat areas. Jumping off of a ledge while skating could potentially lead to you careening into some dangerous Reaverbot. I hope that the Jet Skates aren't the only type of foot part; enabling wall jumping or dashing would be a nice effect for a part.
Speaking of, how exactly to your Jump Springs work? Are you going to simply give him a higher jump, or will there be something like double-jumping?
Sounds nifty! Joytokey works like a dream, but having it included saves time (and RAM!).
Considering that the stage in question only ended with a miniboss, the length was fine. The first stage shouldn't be too long, as Megaman is only upgraded so much, and the player is still getting used to the mechanics. The actual robot master (reaver master?) stages should be a bit longer, however.
I thought the music was great, the only reason I didn't mention it was because I was too excited about the other parts of the game to think about it at the time. Maybe you could post the Mp3's sometime! ;D
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Post by mirak on Sept 10, 2009 23:32:18 GMT -5
I didn't want to post because the urge of wanting to help you people usually overtakes me, and you've blown me away enhough times for me to never try again ( ), but i'll try to just post what i think about the music instead of what i could do with it*. Please take no offense, for what i'm about to write is just what i think of the music by taking into account my own experience. Most songs are below average for me, lots of chords are out of place, a few are in the wrong tone, some songs are decent while others use instruments that overshadows the rest, various songs could do a lot more impact if they were fixed. I'll go through each one in order to enlist what i found wrong/fixable: MMDigger-BossDefeat : The synth and strings sounds pretty "alone", if you know what i mean, the instruments in terms of number are too low, and makes the song sound bland and grey-ish, specially since you used them both as melodies. The initial synth, which holds the lowest tone, is held out 'till the end, creating negative dissonance between the synth and the following strings. In other words, there is a lack of percussion. I can understand what you were aiming to do, but music like that, victory fanfares after a big boss battle, feel better when they have enhough OOMPH for it to make the player FEEL the success. Of course, i'm not saying you should get a song bloated with instruments and dramatic chords, but even the addition of a single timpani can make a big change. I made a small dramatization of your song in a few minutes, i think i didn't make it the same to yours since i only heard yours once and then remade it by memory. I added percussion. Click Here To Download ItAs you can hear, there is a difference between having only the strings to having strings plus OOMPH. MMDigger-BossIntro : This one does have a bit of timpany, how come the victory fanfare didn't? Anyway, you extended the tune too much, three times the "ding dong dong" was enhoguh, but the fourth comes up as unnecesary, also the end chord doesn't sound well, remove the note before the last one, it'll sound better in my opinion. MMDigger-GameOver : Hey, you got a note wrong. If you count each change of tone as a note, we have 5 notes, the third one should be lower, the ntoe was just placed incorrectly, nothing that cannot be fixed. the rest of the tune is well, your average Megaman Legends game over tune, suffices and sounds familiar. MMDigger-MiniBoss : You used the main melody of the forbidden island miniboss theme i see. The problem in this song is that it's formed of melodies, and has no accompaniment, no complement. The arpeggio "in the back" is inconsistent and leaves the song silent at times, often going from 1234 to 123 when it's not the right time. This one has a lot of potential, but still has a lot of things that could be fixed. MMDigger-Opening : I liked this one the most so far, since i cannot really find anything wrong here. You did like a remix of some sort of the flutter theme and converted it to be a fitting opening song. It has a flaw though, when the guitar pluck (it's a guitar?) enters at 00:30 there is a negative dissonance/discrepancy with the strings "at the back", it has no effect until 00:36, making it sound odd and unpleasant, and it comes back at 1:00 again. It can be fixed by changing the note of the strings there, or sustaining the one that was before, whichever sounds better. MMDigger-StageSelect : You took a MoTB's song and made an hybrid of it this time, sounds cool, but the bass sounds terrible, making everything sound crowded, and whoever made the other melody (not the MoTB one) needs to remake it completely, it crashes with the first melody and bothers it, to be more precise, it sounds like one of the two doesn't go there. The part when the MoTB melody ends and the other one takes over sounds great though, so the only problem lies with the first part of the song. MMDigger-Town : This one has a similar problem with the one above: The melodies doesn't match, and what's worse, both seem to be at relatively same velocity and volume. The song itself is not very cheery for a town, so i didn't listen it for too long. MMDigger-WestPath : COULD SOMEONE LOWER THE VOLUME OF THE MASSIVE "DING" PLZKTHX??? Seriously, i was wearing headphones and all of the songs were relatively calm so far when suddenly BAM the ding noise with it's outrageous BANG on my ears. All of this is just my own critique. I'm one of the few musicians here, the other ones have yet to post i think. In any case i bet most people won't agree with me, i don't mind. * = EDIT: LOL I PHAILED I DID PUT WHAT I'D HAVE DONE LOLOLOLOLO
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Post by Pitch on Sept 11, 2009 11:52:37 GMT -5
I thought the music was great, the only reason I didn't mention it was because I was too excited about the other parts of the game to think about it at the time. Maybe you could post the Mp3's sometime! ;D Run the game. While the game is still running, you'll find all the OGG files for the game's music in the same folder you opened the game from. They disappear after you close the game, though, so copy/paste ftw! (OGG > MP3 — Open standards ftw!!) I played through it again, and I'd have to say it does get a good bit easier the second time around. (one go, with no upgrades this time!) I think I'm generally in agreement with Mir@k about the music, but far less technically so. (what's a negative dissonance? ) None of it really blew my mind, but it was pretty good I guess.
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Post by Blues on Sept 11, 2009 17:58:04 GMT -5
A few thoughts I had while playing the demo: -I noticed the music for the forest is a combo of the Shala-Kun music and Drillman's stage theme. Pretty nice. Also nice is the sound system-it gives an impression of depth, like in the MML games themselves. -Jumping could use a bit of improvement; for instance, walking around and jumping feels...rough, not as smooth as an official Mega Man game, for instance. -I'm pretty sure the bottom foliage graphic is reused from Mega Man 7 ( the difference in sprite style gives it away). Sneaky move there, fab. -It would be cool if the full game's levels had multiple floors to them (like in the fortress levels MM6 and MM7). -Is the low amount of frames for the sprites (like Mega Man's walk cycle) intentional- as a homage to the classic series, maybe? Overall, it's a fun little game. Good job, fab! Edit: Wait, that's Drillman's theme! Oops, sorry.
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Post by bdk336 on Sept 11, 2009 20:11:47 GMT -5
One question about the arcade: What exactly would the requirements be for a game demo to get put up? In other words, how much of the game features (other than the basic game/physics engine which is obviously a must) would have to be in it for you to consider posting a demo I made?
I don't have one yet but I want to know where I should aim for before creating a demo.
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Post by fAB on Sept 11, 2009 20:29:08 GMT -5
And you were planning to let me sit there with said typo in my demo? tsk, tsk XD Naw, the recent attack on Ryship and Megaman being 13 are both intended to indicate that it's roughly a year before Legends. I know what you mean about the Bonnes, it would have been fun to include them. Though on the other hand, I do get a little tired of everyone using them to death in fics and stuff. I mean, what are the chances that the Bonnes and Caskets would always end up in the same place at the same time and meet over and over? Ah okay, I hadn't noticed such a problem but I'll have a look see. That doesn't really work out. If there's a reaverbot guarding the entrance to every ruin and it regenerates, the Flutter would get attacked when trying to drop off Megaman (which could make for an interesting aerial battle, but I don't think that's the way people want to start their ruin exploration out). I agree with you and Buster Cannon, this is probably the way to go. I'll try to get around to it soon then. Even though I'll just keep getting more, I can share what I have already at least. Ah good, very glad to hear it. Hope you enjoy. No lives. Being able to save should suffice, as it does in the actual Legends games. Higher jump, for certain. I don't want to get too carried away with abilities that aren't really Legendsy, or would make Megaman seem more powerful than he is in the actual games when he's older. Thank you! ^_^ Thank you! ^_^ Thank you! ;_; Haha, no seriously, thank you. Someone (non-family and not someone to throw away compliments) once heard one of my earliest remix attempts and told me they thought I had a lot of potential. That gave me a bit of confidence which helped me attempt doing custom music for this game, confidence which is all but shattered now... But that's a good thing, right? I have no musical background to speak of, so if I want to improve I need honest opinions. I'll go over all these again with your comments in mind. If I can't hear what you've pointed out, I'll get one of my parents to help me figure it out, since they're both very musically gifted. 1. Comment made off-forum on an already finished game that took just 25 hours to whip up, and was ironically inspired by a crazy urge to use said animal graphics for something. 2. Comment on an already released demo, in which many of the graphics were/are considered temporary anyway. Are there other instances I'm unaware of? I don't believe either of us ever intended to blow you away. Blyka and I make a pretty good team and we're usually not looking for outside help. If it's something we feel we can handle then we want to do it ourselves, even if we aren't going about it the best way or have a different style or way of doing things than how others might approach it. If we do ask for help from others, it's usually because they possess a lot of talent in an area we feel we're lacking. Glad you like it, and that you caught on to it being Drill Man's. XD It is. Nearly all the stage graphics are edited and/or recolored from MM7 and X1-3. Big time saver. Probably, or maybe I'm just lazy. XD Edit: Someone asked me this once before. There isn't any "exactly", really (and at this point I'd be happy to have just about anything submitted XP). If you make something cool that people would enjoy seeing/playing and you've put a good amount of effort into it, it will doubtless show.
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Post by in·clover on Sept 11, 2009 20:30:19 GMT -5
One question about the arcade: What exactly would the requirements be for a game demo to get put up? In other words, how much of the game features (other than the basic game/physics engine which is obviously a must) would have to be in it for you to consider posting a demo I made? I don't have one yet but I want to know where I should aim for before creating a demo. Basic submission guidelines can be read here.Also, I've really gotten into making the custom music for the game, weaving Legends and Classic themes together. It's fun to work on, and I think it's really going to give the game it's own feel, but none of you have mentioned it yet (other than a quick lol at the intro). Thoughts, anyone? Do I suck that bad? XP You don't suck, it's just that the demo was packed so full of things that begged commentary that it must've gotten pushed over to the side. Frankly, I like the concept and arrangement more than the execution. I'm no Beethoven but it seems like you got the songs all laid out how you want 'em and you have a good idea of how you want to approach them, but some of it seems a bit off key or just unpolished. But it's just that, something that could easily be tweaked. Not bad in any way.
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