SULucina
Zakobon
Out on temporary leave. Will return when better.
Posts: 105
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Post by SULucina on Jan 11, 2020 17:15:21 GMT -5
Citizens of Kattelox Island... please forgive me for saying this... but, honestly... ...you all should have been dead. *Game Over theme plays* Okay, so after playing MML2, we learn that MegaMan was historically labelled as an "Aberrant" unit. In other words, he demonstrated that he's detrimental to the Master System and he is to be apprehended/terminated for his actions. Soooo, my question is this... How is Trigger still able to stop the Carbon Reintialization Program for Kattelox Island given his track record for his going against the System (attempted termination of a Mother Unit, probably countless other Purifiers, Servitors, Bureaucratic Units, et cetera)? I figure that when a Unit receives the System's "black spot" it negates any prior authority that he/she/it could have over a given province or sector. At least, that's the way I'd envison the System to deal with high-ranking Abberants - in this case, a 1st Class Purifier. Also, by attempting to terminate the deemed Aberrant Trigger, wouldn't that have put Juno in the right in the eyes of the System and override those petty claims of malfunction (looking at you, Data) placed upon him. Kind of like that saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of idea, but I digress. Just think - if the System did this instead of what we get in the game, Juno might have actually been able to return... I thought about it for a bit and came up some theories as to why this might be... A.) The creators had little faith in this game getting a sequel and or didn't think people would sniff out/care about this little oversight when creating the sequel (most likely, boring explanation.) B.) The Kattelox System is an independent branch of the bigger Master System (not likely, but interesting.) C.) The System must be really that stupid to let high-class Abberants keep their executive authority. More proof that the System sucks. D.) The System's comm system sucks/was sabatoged after the Master's death in Trigger's attempt to destroy the System. F.) A smorgasbord of everything I mentioned above... smorgasbord. Now, I'm hungry. Also, better one or two?
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Post by HF on Jan 11, 2020 18:14:05 GMT -5
Given the story's influences, I would say it runs on logic not unlike Ghibli films.
Basically Trigger's (literal and figurative deus ex machina) authority simply overrides an outdated programme which was followed by Juno.
Either way, thankfully that means Rock and co don't need to seek out the Infinity Shards and restore the island's inhabitants he made such strong bonds with (or something like that).
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Post by Rockman Striker on Jan 13, 2020 12:16:39 GMT -5
My guess is that the System must had been programmed to override orders from lower class units by higher classes, knowing that Trigger was the favorite unit of the Master he must have had higher privileges than Bureaucratic models before the downfall of the System, or the Master granted him those rights before dying. About the Aberrant status, maybe the System was able to detect malfunctioning units automatically but it wasn't perfect, in the case of Trigger he wasn't malfunctioning, he just had orders extremely different from those of the System, turning him into an aberrant (or crazy) at the eyes of the other units. There was a command to declare an unit as aberrant in case of suspicion, but either Sera forgot to declare it or she had no time to do it (due to all the chaos that must've occurred) or she tried to, but there where higher orders from the Master so the System wouldn't remove Trigger's privileges.
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Post by HF on Jan 13, 2020 19:01:14 GMT -5
About the Aberrant status, maybe the System was able to detect malfunctioning units automatically but it wasn't perfect, in the case of Trigger he wasn't malfunctioning, he just had orders extremely different from those of the System, turning him into an aberrant (or crazy) at the eyes of the other units. This is especially the case considering "Abberant" units are known as "Irregulars" in the Japanese version, which is the same term used for "Mavericks" in the X series.
Granted, there is still the possibility that the meaning of "Irregular" may differ between the two series as "irregular" itself is a common general phrase in Japanese. In which we can just make of it what we will.
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SULucina
Zakobon
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Posts: 105
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Post by SULucina on Jan 13, 2020 20:32:07 GMT -5
*hissing* [Man, I hate weekends, says this on a Monday...]
Given the story's influences, I would say it runs on logic not unlike Ghibli films. Not unlike some other anime (ex. DBZ) and manga are - to get shoved out to make another quick buck for the publishers and for us hungry consumers would gobble up without noticing that they've made a few substitutions in the process. Now that I think about it, the rest of the Mega Man series is pretty much the same way, the classic series (like every game after MM1,) the BN series, and especially with the X series (*cough* MMX6 *cough* MMX7 *cough*.) Hell, most games in general that become a series rarely stick to the constraints established in previous installments because it limits creative imagination therefore sequel building grounds therefore profit. Basically Trigger's (literal and figurative deus ex machina) authority simply overrides an outdated programme which was followed by Juno. Hmm... that's a pretty valid point though, because, after all, it wouldn't be called Mega Man Legends if Triggs himself wasn't a legend in his own right. My guess is that the System must had been programmed to override orders from lower class units by higher classes, knowing that Trigger was the favorite unit of the Master he must have had higher privileges than Bureaucratic models before the downfall of the System, or the Master granted him those rights before dying. About the Aberrant status, maybe the System was able to detect malfunctioning units automatically but it wasn't perfect, in the case of Trigger he wasn't malfunctioning, he just had orders extremely different from those of the System, turning him into an aberrant (or crazy) at the eyes of the other units. There was a command to declare an unit as aberrant in case of suspicion, but either Sera forgot to declare it or she had no time to do it (due to all the chaos that must've occurred) or she tried to, but there where higher orders from the Master so the System wouldn't remove Trigger's privileges. Ugh, favoritism. I despise it (says the Unit who supposedly was the Master's favorite in its personal head canon prior to being replaced and enjoyed his protection.) I guess the Master could have some commands even Sera can't override even if they ultimately lead to his or the System's demise, in additon to giving Trigger... whatever the heck was that pocket-sized thing was (the Master's DNA sample, or a jamming device, I don't know.) Interesting point on the automated Abberant detection system though, and how a simple command isn't the same as, per se, a virus or a hack. Guess he didn't become "irregular" by the usual means (has nothing to do with certain bodily functions, whatsoever.) Though, a part of me still wants blame Sera for the entire fiasco. Whenever something goes wrong with relation to Elysium System, it's ultimately her fault. The Master dying, Trigger going Abberant, the System getting destroyed, Juno getting pwned, everything. She did have a choice in the end, even if she was being stubborn. It's just like her to make one mistake, costing me one of my favorite endgame bosses, forever doomed to returning only in various fan-fiction. ...Any more ideas?
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Post by HF on Jan 13, 2020 21:16:49 GMT -5
Not unlike some other anime (ex. DBZ) and manga are - to get shoved out to make another quick buck for the publishers and for us hungry consumers would gobble up without noticing that they've made a few substitutions in the process. To be fair, I watch shows like DBZ not for plot* but see big buff aliens punching other big buff aliens. Also Vegeta. *Though credit where it's due: DB Super Broly is absolutely amazing as a character-driven story.
Though it doesn't present itself as such in the English releases, the classic series is meant to be episodic hence its subtitles in each numbered entry (2: Wily's Mystery, 7: Battle of Fate, 8: Metal Heroes, 11: Gears of Fate, etc.)
Which is why I personally don't mind small inconsistencies or story-breaking powers as I see each one is its own experience, as long as the core basics are present and consistent.
Or like I always say, just treat the series as episodes of Yatterman; nonsensical for the most part, but damned if it isn't fun to watch.
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SULucina
Zakobon
Out on temporary leave. Will return when better.
Posts: 105
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Post by SULucina on Jan 14, 2020 18:47:01 GMT -5
True, but there is a notable dip in quality between the Frieza Saga and the Cell and Buu Sagas (transformations, other gimmicks, recycling plot devices, fighting tech, etc.) Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the crap out of the latter, but they don't have as a lasting impact as the original "canonical" sagas prior to the destruction of Namek. The way it ended just felt right to me in a way the Cell and Buu sagas couldn't. [Alright, enough non-MML anime talk, me.] Personally, I honestly didn't mind the inconsistencies between the Classic series games because to be fair, those games are not driven by plot as heavily as Legends is where the events are more linearly organized, with the exception of MoTB. Yeah, I knew that they did had titles in their Japanese versions, but I did not know they were supposed to be more chonological as opposed to the "This is Rush, look how useful he is in the game; Rush Coil! Rush Jet!" and such. Not that I actually want a solid canon on the events of the Classic series; that kinda goes against the gameplay nature of the series ("What? I was supposed to beat Wood Man first and Air Man third because it's canon? Well, poop.") With the events presented in such a linear, unmovable path though, it's kinda hard for someone like me to shake off a sense of wanting more coherence to a set of chronologically established ideas with respect to the Legends games in favor for doing what the heck it wants just because. Sure, Legends isn't as strongly rooted in plot as the Zero games (whose plots were pre-drafted beforehand and then underwent changes due to the release of some... dubious MMX titles,) but presenting possibly contradictory evidence in a sequel to a given event, in this case Trigger's Abberancy in MML2 vs. the events entailing the defeat of MegaMan Juno in a previous installment, doesn't seem like the way to go about elaborating on a particular theme in the series that I hold close to heart - the System. *sigh* Maybe I do take matters in fiction way too seriously, but that's just me. Then again, I just wanted to poke at Capcom for its own inconsistences and flaws, because it's fun.
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Trege
Poh
oro?
Meddling with Legends 1, Legends 2 and Mega Man 64 data.
Posts: 463
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Post by Trege on Jan 17, 2020 19:12:38 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Yuna is in charge of Terra's systems, and Yuna became neutral to the conflict between Trigger, The System, and Sera. There's 2 Mother Units and only Sera was against Trigger in the end. Since Juno was on Terra wouldn't Mother Unit Yuna be in charge of him I think Data even mentions mentions guidance will be requested from Mother at a future date after Juno was defeated even though he had the power to contact Eden for the re-initialization program of Kattelox, Trigger technically was never marked as bad to Yuna's eyes that's probably why the Terra System did not flag him as bad. I'm pretty sure Yuna is Mother 1 and Sera is Mother 2, because data also mentions he was created so Megaman's memory couldn't be scanned by Mother 2, if we assume Mother 2 is Sera it makes sense it'd be bad if she could scan his memory because he was fighting her.
Though Sera and Trigger got sealed away by Yuna, however Yuna never disagreed with Trigger, she only tried to understand his reasoning. We all know Sera had a jealousy thing going on as well because of Trigger and The Master's friendship, so Yuna turning neutral was a pretty good plot point, makes me wonder if she realized Sera's motivation wasn't just for the system.
Legends 2 mentions that both Terra and Elysium have different units in charge of the system in their designated area, Yuna also mentioned she was in charge of Terra's system which would mean she's the highest level system unit admin for Terra I would assume, and Sera was the highest level Elysium Unit Admin, where as The Master was the supreme admin of both Terra and Elysium systems.
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SULucina
Zakobon
Out on temporary leave. Will return when better.
Posts: 105
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Post by SULucina on Jan 17, 2020 21:13:03 GMT -5
Wait, didn't Yuna did refer to Trigger as an "Abberant" in that cutscene where Sera reawakens? She acknowledged that he indeed took action against the System. Though, letting him keep his commanding abilites doesn't seem like a neutral stance (to me, at least *cough*.) when I read that bit she had to say in the Shuttle Area on Elysium. I guess it's a matter of perspective. If anything, what action taken would have been considered neutral in this case? This seems like more of a true/false situation - do you strip him of his power or not? There's not a lot of middle ground here. Ah. Though, that has me thinking. Perhaps Trigger had some of his authority lost while retaining certain other powers, but it's really difficult to know which ones did he lose after being black-marked if any at all. It's just that here's not a lot of evidence to suggest he did in fact lose other executive abilites, since this is not at all mentioned in the games themselves. Though, there is that saying that abscence of evidence is not evidence of abscence. It's probably the devs not wanting to cram in too much extra infomation about Triggs before the sequel... that we never got. Maybe whatever power taken from him was meant to serve as a weakness for him to overcome in that game (or for a 4th game, I don't know.) But, alas. ...or maybe I'm just biased on blaming on Sera earlier because I'm an Elysian Servitor Unit and always therefore critical about her actions.
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Trege
Poh
oro?
Meddling with Legends 1, Legends 2 and Mega Man 64 data.
Posts: 463
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Post by Trege on Jan 17, 2020 21:55:18 GMT -5
Yuna not taking any action at all probably is considered neutral because if she did take his authority away she'd kinda be siding with Sera, because obviously she can't take Sera's powers away because they're both mother units so Sera would've had the advantage had she done that, she was only able to seal Sera and Trigger both because they weakened each other in combat, to me it felt like Yuna was trying to figure out the whole story because obviously everything wasn't what it seemed, Sera was also partially throwing a fit if you think about it, letting personal feelings affect her view of the situation. She was after all always scolding Trigger according to the master's cutscene when he said "They scolded you again did they not my little friend?"
At least that's what I got from it. It could also be the master was telling him to do stuff to the system and that's why they were getting mad, but we don't really get a lot of information sadly. I bet 3 would've had some Elysium part where you could look up stuff, since a few people did mention the residential area appeared to stay in tact after the final battle.
I kinda like Yuna's stance on the whole thing, she's basically my favorite mother unit because of how well she was handling these situations.
We probably would've gotten more Yuna and Sera cutscenes as well in 3, so it would've been cool to learn about them had it came to pass.
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SULucina
Zakobon
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Posts: 105
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Post by SULucina on Jan 18, 2020 21:17:50 GMT -5
The part about Yuna sealing both Sera and Trigger away I can definitely concur that it is her taking the neutral stance, and don't get me wrong, between the two Mother Units, I prefer Yuna more (character-wise and design-wise.)
There's not a lot source material to suggest it, but maybe both Mothers have to come to a vote on what they should or shouldn't do with a Unit who gets labeled Abberant. They agree that Trigger's actions have a negative impact on the System and therefore he gets the mark of shame. It's when they have to reprimand him is where they have disagreements, and because of this, coming to a vote for stuff like his authoritarian abilites don't get passed. Think of it like a country with a government divided into two provinces each controlled by a single governor. If they both agree on the matter, then it becomes an official and is acted upon, like signing a bill into law. If they both have different stances on the issue on the other hand, that can kill the bill and whatever act that was proposed gets tossed out the window. Yuna indeed may wanted to assess the situation more carefully and therefore wanted to keep the Purifier alive for that reason, just as a percautionary measure in case he was acting out an ultimatum from higher orders (i.e. the Master's.) Sera must have questioned her on this decision and took it as an objection to the System's ordinances/going against the System. So, in the end, the Master did in fact have the final say on this matter. A discussion that they never would again have after the events after Trigger squared off against Sera, and at the expense of a certain Bureaucratic Unit ages later down the line. Something along the line of what Striker had already mentioned about the Mothers idling, just taking these considerations into account and trying to make better sense out of it (while dodging the tasteless out-of-game reasons for this, really don't want to go back to that sector of Nopeville.)
If we ever do get a Legends 3 sometime in the future if at all, I hope they cover more on what Trigger really was like in the past, even just for a little bit, because I do find that stuff very interesting. As well as the rest of Elysium, because I'm sure there are more areas to the space station than what we got in MML2 as well as more treasures, whether they are little bits of lore, parts for special weapons, and or valuable refractors. A digout on Elysium, wouldn't that be something. As well as what Sera and Yuna could finally work together on the same team instead of being on opposite ends. But, again, we'll just have to wait and see about that, unfortunately. *heavy sigh*
As for Juno, it is most pitiable that he had to go. It's not likely that he could be so easily convinced to just stop and drop what he was doing or he wouldn't be scrap metal strewn about the floor in the Main Gate. All because the Mother Units in charge were bickering over the matter of reprehending Trigger that nothing ever got done (sounds typical of the federal government in real life.) Moreover, it was the Master said let the Carbons live. Trigger's just an instrument to do his bidding. R.I.P. MegaMan Juno, Bureaucratic Model 3rd Class (rest in pieces, that is.)
But then where's the fun in that for us? We wouldn't have an end boss, for the love of Digg. Still my favorite final boss in the series, though. The Master's final wishes may have inadvertently caused his demise, but his legacy lives on through my username, gosh darn it.
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