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Post by tominator on May 10, 2011 9:23:28 GMT -5
For some reason the screenshots give me the impression that things in this game are more technologically advanced in this game (most notably the land vehicles) and while it does make sense I'm still note sure that I particularly care for it. More technologically advanced...than airships? Exactly what kind of impression are you getting that the vehicles have gone beyond the Legends series' low-tech simplicity of defying gravity with crystal-powered engines? Does it look like the new cars can also travel through time or something? I always thought that the legends series had an interesting way of pairing relatively old technology (seemingly 1940s) which I assume is made by the carbons and futuristic technology which I believe comes from the ruins. Take the flutter for instance, it is a airship powered by ancient technology that is extremely expensive (it took the sale of all of Megaman's upgrades to get a new engine for the flutter). However, other than the engine the rest of the flutter seems fairly low-tech (I mean it has a wooden wheel to turn it). Besides this the Carbons apparently don't have many computers (which are also likely to be salvaged from ruins), don't have any highrises, and in general seem to be fairly low tech. Things in this new game seem to me to be more streamlined and high tech. We went from these simple cars that looked like they would be stamped out of sheet metal in the 40s to cars that seem like they could be made today and airbikes which we can't make with today's technology. I suppose they could use ancient technology but that would seem to make them prohibitively expensive since it would need it's own refractor and engine (of course then again I guess a "gang" might have a good amount of money and could afford it). Still otherwise things just seem more modern to me (but perhaps this is just because of improved graphics capabilities).
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Post by Avegodro on May 10, 2011 9:40:49 GMT -5
Does it look like the new cars can also travel through time or something? I was tempted........SO tempted to get a picture of the delorean and give it a flutter color scheme, but I will refrain from such antics. I seen the hover bike and was thinking 'Why?' I mean we have a scooter in MML and the copter bikes from MOTB, it just sort of seemed an odd choice. Now I hoping for this to be in MML3.
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Post by Mikéy on May 10, 2011 9:47:07 GMT -5
Lets not forget that Megaman's been to many different islands and each of them had something to offer, whether it's "stamped out cars", a subruin, a sealed evil force, or all of the above. Who's to say Klickelan Island is behind technology wise? Lets boldly step forward into a world with hoverbikes, rockets, and time machines!
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Post by Blues on May 10, 2011 12:08:34 GMT -5
tominator: '40's, eh? : o Personally, I never thought MML was shooting for technology that old- while the style of the cars does somewhat resemble '50s lines, there are modern vending machine all over the island, the shops feature a music store with CDs and an electronics store, and there's apparently cable TV that goes across several islands (KTOX news in MML2, anyone?). Really, I think that MML's technology was supposed to evoke the feel of its time of release (late 90's), in a stylized manner of course. Of course, you can also take the rest of the series into account, and here we see that MML tends to waver more towards the sci-fi side than the 'realisitc' side of the scale, while still covering both sides. Take MoTB, where three-wheeled cars are the norm, there are several big cities with telephone poles and an interconnected road system, and the police have not only cannon emplacements and mechs, but also one-man flying helicopter-cycles. MML2 took a different approach to tech, but from what we saw, steam trains are no longer in use in Yosyonke, the Parabola is an older piece of carbon technology despite its power, and Nino is an entire artificial island. So the series in general, then, seems to base its approach to technology more on the feeling of the game itself more than just a consistent level across all games.
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Post by Avegodro on May 10, 2011 18:14:26 GMT -5
I've been thinking about it, each island has different resources and wealth so each island would have different technology. Also the enviroment comes into play with these things. Nino is on top of a sea tower, Kattlelox has the main gate and all those interconnected ruins. Klickelan looks like its loaded, so various interesting enviroments and ruins will probably be in store.
Or Klickelan is nothing but a vaction spot loaded with casinos. ;D
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Post by Raijin on May 10, 2011 19:46:06 GMT -5
There is absolutely nothing especially technologically advanced about Barret's hoverbike compared to what's established in the series. Take the holon engine of a Drache, stick it on a bike frame. Bam. Hoverbike. Seriously. Draches are actually quite small considering how much space inside is required to house its pilots/passengers and the Bright Bats' bikes are pretty bulky. They could easily be using the exact same flight mechanisms. I always thought that the legends series had an interesting way of pairing relatively old technology (seemingly 1940s) which I assume is made by the carbons and futuristic technology which I believe comes from the ruins. "40s" is quite a stretch. The MML world has always had a mixture of technological styles, but they mainly center on "modern". If anything, many of the old cars on Kattelox seemed more advanced than modern vehicles because they're relatively small, suggesting their compact, clean-burning engine (holon). For everything else, Blues does a good job of giving some actual perspective on the types of tech seen around Terra. Take the flutter for instance, it is a airship powered by ancient technology that is extremely expensive (it took the sale of all of Megaman's upgrades to get a new engine for the flutter). However, other than the engine the rest of the flutter seems fairly low-tech (I mean it has a wooden wheel to turn it). A wooden steering wheel isn't necessarily an indication of low-tech. A steering wheel is a steering wheel. With the entire cockpit it's attached to made of metal, computer screens, and other complicated doohickeys, you don't think they could have sprung for the ergonomic control column if they wanted to? The wooden wheel is purely a stylistic accent to make the audience think of sea explorers, it's not supposed to say anything about how advanced they are. Besides this the Carbons apparently don't have many computers (which are also likely to be salvaged from ruins), don't have any highrises, and in general seem to be fairly low tech. So your point of view is basically "Carbons don't have any post-industrial-level technology, except when they do, and when they do, it's because it was salvaged from a ruin." Well great, then just assume the hoverbike and everything in MML3 that seems too advanced to you is from a ruin. It's not even entirely inaccurate -- it's established in the opening narration that the world's inhabitants owe much of their technological advancement to digging. I just think you're underestimating how permeated that is. The difference between "flying car" and "land car" may not even be that one is prohibitively more expensive than the other. Flying machines are definitely common enough on Terra that they must be cheaper than modern equivalents. The fact that they still have non-flying vehicles at all is probably the same reason some people ride bicycles when they can afford a car. It's just not necessary to fly everywhere when your daily commute is just a few blocks away. Besides, I think to a certain extent, the rarity of airships on Kattelox was a plot device to explain why the Clozer Sub-Gate is out of reach until the Flutter's repaired. You'd think you still could have borrowed the KTOX ship though... And while we're talking about the level of technological advancement on Terra, let's not forget how common it is to see a robot with AI that perfectly resembles human intellect. "Don't have many computers"? How about the 40 walking yellow computers that are the most recognizable aspect of the series? Basically, what Legends does is take futuristic sci-fi levels of technology and make them seem mundane and rustic through the eyes of its characters. That's what they've always done, and that looks like what they're doing now.
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Post by tominator on May 10, 2011 22:04:52 GMT -5
tominator: '40's, eh? : o Personally, I never thought MML was shooting for technology that old- while the style of the cars does somewhat resemble '50s lines, there are modern vending machine all over the island, the shops feature a music store with CDs and an electronics store, and there's apparently cable TV that goes across several islands (KTOX news in MML2, anyone?). Really, I think that MML's technology was supposed to evoke the feel of its time of release (late 90's), in a stylized manner of course. Of course, you can also take the rest of the series into account, and here we see that MML tends to waver more towards the sci-fi side than the 'realisitc' side of the scale, while still covering both sides. Take MoTB, where three-wheeled cars are the norm, there are several big cities with telephone poles and an interconnected road system, and the police have not only cannon emplacements and mechs, but also one-man flying helicopter-cycles. MML2 took a different approach to tech, but from what we saw, steam trains are no longer in use in Yosyonke, the Parabola is an older piece of carbon technology despite its power, and Nino is an entire artificial island. So the series in general, then, seems to base its approach to technology more on the feeling of the game itself more than just a consistent level across all games. Quite valid points, and 1940s is probably too far back. Due to the nature of the civilization it is quite hard to specifically place based off our standards. Well, and it's also a game and the developers can throw in whatever seems nice (as you noted). The series just seems to give the feel of the futuristic mated with the relatively old. There is absolutely nothing especially technologically advanced about Barret's hoverbike compared to what's established in the series. Take the holon engine of a Drache, stick it on a bike frame. Bam. Hoverbike. Seriously. Draches are actually quite small considering how much space inside is required to house its pilots/passengers and the Bright Bats' bikes are pretty bulky. They could easily be using the exact same flight mechanisms. Well, I've always held the Bonnes to a different standard, Tronne is a mechanical genius and being pirates and somewhat diggers they have access to more capitol and likely ancient technology than the average citizen. Refractors are the most valuable item to the Carbon civilization and apparently one refractor is enough to power a sizable city. So it would seem to be prohibitively expensive for the commoner to have a refractor powered transportation. A wooden steering wheel isn't necessarily an indication of low-tech. A steering wheel is a steering wheel. With the entire cockpit it's attached to made of metal, computer screens, and other complicated doohickeys, you don't think they could have sprung for the ergonomic control column if they wanted to? The wooden wheel is purely a stylistic accent to make the audience think of sea explorers, it's not supposed to say anything about how advanced they are. Yes the wheel itself is not a total indication of the technology level, but there are other things as well. For example, the engine seems to use levers and knobs to operate it (like some sort of old fashioned steam engine). They also apparently use maps instead of some sort of automated tracking system like contemporary ships. On the Gesselshaft Tiesel talks into some horn thing as a PA. These things seem to give an "old world" not super-modern feel. So your point of view is basically "Carbons don't have any post-industrial-level technology, except when they do, and when they do, it's because it was salvaged from a ruin." Not at all, the Carbons are certainly beyond some agrarian society (they have cars, flying toys, and broadcast television), but at the same time they just don't seem to be the quite futuristic society that would be building mass hoverbikes (though I did forget about those helicopter bikes which would lead credence to this). Looking at cities like Saul Kada, Manda, and Calinca they seem to have a quite simple living. Even more advanced cities like Kattelox and Nino seem "low-tech" (with exceptions like the parabola cannon) by today's standards(where's all the cell phones, laptops, even regular telephones?). Also, despite having ancient plans to build one, making a rocket from scratch seems to be a difficult challenge (which seems like it would be easier to make than a ion engined (or whatever that blue glow is) levitating airship. And while we're talking about the level of technological advancement on Terra, let's not forget how common it is to see a robot with AI that perfectly resembles human intellect. "Don't have many computers"? How about the 40 walking yellow computers that are the most recognizable aspect of the series? Well, the carbons do seem to have some confusion as to what they are (I remember one being called "some yellow faced kid"). Also, this is the only actual computer I remember seeing in the game images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100819062434/megaman/images/thumb/e/e7/FlutterRollRoom1A.png/525px-FlutterRollRoom1A.pngAll the displays I seen in the game are relatively archaic looking green screen displays. I still feel that legends gave the feeling of old tech meets future tech (or a stylized modern/future as Blues put it). The Carbon technology just seemed bulky and utilitarian while the new stuff looks more sleek and modern (but perhaps that's just the feel of this island as Avegodro noted).
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Post by Raijin on May 11, 2011 0:34:14 GMT -5
it would seem to be prohibitively expensive for the commoner to have a refractor powered transportation. Except they do. Everyone does. All technology is refractor-powered, even the cars on wheels. For example, the engine seems to use levers and knobs to operate it (like some sort of old fashioned steam engine). They also apparently use maps instead of some sort of automated tracking system like contemporary ships. On the Gesselshaft Tiesel talks into some horn thing as a PA. These things seem to give an "old world" not super-modern feel. None of those things are necessarily outdated. An anti-gravity device is just as futuristic whether it's switched on by a lever or a touchscreen, but at least the former is more visually interesting from a design standpoint. they just don't seem to be the quite futuristic society that would be building mass hoverbikes (though I did forget about those helicopter bikes which would lead credence to this). Looking at cities like Saul Kada, Manda, and Calinca they seem to have a quite simple living. Even more advanced cities like Kattelox and Nino seem "low-tech" (with exceptions like the parabola cannon) Part of where I'm not following you is that you say Parabola is an exception but the hoverbikes are mass-produced. You haven't played MML3 yet, but you can already tell the situations are completely different. where's all the cell phones, laptops, even regular telephones? Same place the toilets are in most video games. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they're not there. Right Officer at Counter: We haven't yet told the Inspector, but we just got a call from the bank... KTOX Reporter, end of MML1: "pipipipipipipipipi! Uh-oh--that's my pager! " Roll (after buying Newspaper Subscription): Great! I'll call the paper office today! I'll leave the papers in the living room so we can all read them. There are plenty of other computers around too. Kattelox has a video game store and a video game school. The bank has ATMs. Every airship deck had computers all over the place. Laptops and cell phones are probably bad examples too since they didn't really become ubiquitous in the real world until the last decade. Also, despite having ancient plans to build one, making a rocket from scratch seems to be a difficult challenge (which seems like it would be easier to make than a ion engined (or whatever that blue glow is) levitating airship. Holon, and it's not necessarily easier considering the technology they do have is geared towards hovering. Impressive as that is, it wouldn't provide escape velocity unless you could put more power behind it. I still feel that legends gave the feeling of old tech meets future tech (or a stylized modern/future as Blues put it). The Carbon technology just seemed bulky and utilitarian while the new stuff looks more sleek and modern (but perhaps that's just the feel of this island as Avegodro noted). Do a Google image search on "sleek and modern" then take a second look at the hoverbikes and other Klickelan designs. I think they've still got a lot of angles to shave off before they can consider themselves "sleek". To me, the designs look about the same as ever, but through the updated perspective expected after a ten year gap. I also suspect your own perspective about how appropriate the tech is will magically morph as you actually play the game. Can anyone remember what it was like playing MML2 the first time, having played MML1 first? Didn't the grandiose nature of the Sulphur Bottom seem like a dramatic leap from what you were used to? Does it still seem that way? If not, neither will the hoverbike. If yes, I can't help you.
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Post by Dashe on May 11, 2011 1:41:05 GMT -5
Don't forget that cutting-edge "Brand New VCR" at Staple Electronics!
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Post by in·clover on May 11, 2011 5:47:45 GMT -5
My thoughts on the tech have always been that they're pretty adept at re-engineering ancient heavy machinery, but as far as their own technology goes they're somewhat old fashioned. I've never been given any reason to think that they're especially good at programming digital technology, even though there are computers all over the place they seem to be pretty crude, with the exception of the Sulphur Bottom which only seems to be displaying graphs or crunching numbers or whatever.
They wouldn't be able to utilize ancient computers without understanding the language and coding, but with physical machinery they can observe and study it directly. Things like PDAs and shit seem out of place. Like the levers and things mentioned before, their own technology is usually either separate from or fused with the Holon kind to some degree, but there own is pretty primitive in comparison.
So, anti-gravity and laser beams sure, but iPads and internet no. That's my view.
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Post by Avegodro on May 11, 2011 10:17:26 GMT -5
Machines which use quantum refractors as their power source are referred to as Holon machines. While they are used for many purposes today, their original configuration, purpose, and means of construction remain unknown.
They can create their own technology but some technology they haven't a clue it seems.
The Junk Store owner's wife:
"You know what a dig is, right? It's where you go underground, looking for old machine parts"
So it looks like they just adapt any technology they can get their hands on.
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Post by tominator on May 11, 2011 17:08:58 GMT -5
Except they do. Everyone does. All technology is refractor-powered, even the cars on wheels. I don't recall it being stated that all machines are holon tech (though I suppose this is possible). It is stated that "Refractor energy ... has become a cornerstone of the emerging (post-disaster) civilization. Likewise in our time it can be stated that oil is a cornerstone of our energy needs. However, that does not mean that everything is gas powered (notably almost every electric plant is not). The refractors themselves seem rather rare, (the most that we have personally seen on an island is 3 I believe) so how can there be dozens holon cars and other tech on a single island? The dropship, which seems about the size of a car, used a class B refractor which still seems rare. If holon technology is the norm, than why do they seem so hard to come by? Why did Joe have to make a special trip to the ruins for a refractor? If everything is powered by refractors it seems there should be a decent supply in every town to fix broken machines. None of those things are necessarily outdated. An anti-gravity device is just as futuristic whether it's switched on by a lever or a touchscreen, but at least the former is more visually interesting from a design standpoint. True they are not necessarily outdated, but to me at least the evoke a relatively crude "old world" feel. It gives me a feeling of this is a post-disaster civilization with limited resources using salvaged technology to expand. The towns themselves with their small, quaint nature gave me a similar feel. Part of where I'm not following you is that you say Parabola is an exception but the hoverbikes are mass-produced. You haven't played MML3 yet, but you can already tell the situations are completely different. Well, the parabola is a single one of a kind weapon (the technology for which we do not know the origin) that is the property of a island's government who no doubt have lots of $$$. On the other hand the hoverbikes are owned by gangs and police alike. Also, there seems to be rules and regulations governing the use of hoverbikes based off a translated transcript that HF did for us, so they seem to be somewhat common place. Same place the toilets are in most video games. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they're not there. Right Officer at Counter: We haven't yet told the Inspector, but we just got a call from the bank... KTOX Reporter, end of MML1: "pipipipipipipipipi! Uh-oh--that's my pager! " Roll (after buying Newspaper Subscription): Great! I'll call the paper office today! I'll leave the papers in the living room so we can all read them. There are plenty of other computers around too. Kattelox has a video game store and a video game school. The bank has ATMs. Every airship deck had computers all over the place. Laptops and cell phones are probably bad examples too since they didn't really become ubiquitous in the real world until the last decade. Alright, so they do have phones, pagers, ATMs, and cutting edge VCRs; still I think it is a fair leap from that to hoverbikes. The computers seem rather crude (with green displays) large, and likely expensive (why are there no computers in city hall, the library, the police station, or the hospital they appear to be special machines used for flying airships and digger support. The viedogame design studio does seem rather odd and out of place with the rest of the tech. True cell phones and laptops were not as prolific in the 2k range (though they were likely more present in Japan than the rest of the world at that time) they were present. If the Carbons were supposed to be a highly developed civilization that mastered hovering technology and clean vehicles, it seems they should have had these and even more. Holon, and it's not necessarily easier considering the technology they do have is geared towards hovering. Impressive as that is, it wouldn't provide escape velocity unless you could put more power behind it. Yes, I knew the Flutter was a holon machine, but I thought that the refractor was an energy source for the engines and whatever technology they used (but it's probably best to not dwell on the workings of made up technology). Still, tilt the flutter on it's side, make it cylindrical put a big refractor and it would seem you have a rocket. The fact that they are having a hard time doing this (something we have done in the 1960s) seems to indicate that they are not extremely technologically developed using just their own means. Do a Google image search on "sleek and modern" then take a second look at the hoverbikes and other Klickelan designs. I think they've still got a lot of angles to shave off before they can consider themselves "sleek". To me, the designs look about the same as ever, but through the updated perspective expected after a ten year gap. I also suspect your own perspective about how appropriate the tech is will magically morph as you actually play the game. Oh come now this: does not look any more modern than this? At least to me even the cars look more modern and comparatively more sleek in this game than their predecessors. Can anyone remember what it was like playing MML2 the first time, having played MML1 first? Didn't the grandiose nature of the Sulphur Bottom seem like a dramatic leap from what you were used to? Does it still seem that way? If not, neither will the hoverbike. If yes, I can't help you. Still to me at least it seems the jump from Flutter to Sulhpur Bottom (which appear to be property of the relatively rich and privleged) is less than the jump from the Fultter to hoverbikes (that seem to be at least somewhat common place). In most cases miniaturization is more difficult than making things larger and usually more expensive to develop. So if the flutter's engine and the power plant are our known basis for holon technology, going to a hoverbike is quite a leap in miniaturization. It is just an interesting perspective looking in. Though you are right I will probably I will probably become more accepting of it when I start to play the game. My thoughts on the tech have always been that they're pretty adept at re-engineering ancient heavy machinery, but as far as their own technology goes they're somewhat old fashioned. I've never been given any reason to think that they're especially good at programming digital technology, even though there are computers all over the place they seem to be pretty crude, with the exception of the Sulphur Bottom which only seems to be displaying graphs or crunching numbers or whatever. They wouldn't be able to utilize ancient computers without understanding the language and coding, but with physical machinery they can observe and study it directly. Things like PDAs and shit seem out of place. Like the levers and things mentioned before, their own technology is usually either separate from or fused with the Holon kind to some degree, but there own is pretty primitive in comparison. So, anti-gravity and laser beams sure, but iPads and internet no. That's my view. Machines which use quantum refractors as their power source are referred to as Holon machines. While they are used for many purposes today, their original configuration, purpose, and means of construction remain unknown.They can create their own technology but some technology they haven't a clue it seems. The Junk Store owner's wife: "You know what a dig is, right? It's where you go underground, looking for old machine parts" So it looks like they just adapt any technology they can get their hands on. These both describe how I view it as well. The Carbons take and adapt what technology they find in the ruins, but their own native technology seems fairly primitive.
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Post by Raijin on May 12, 2011 0:47:22 GMT -5
Oh come now this: does not look any more modern than this? At least to me even the cars look more modern and comparatively more sleek in this game than their predecessors. I honestly cannot see what you're looking at. I see a collection of boxy, angular, seam-filled, dull-colored machines. The MoTB example you posted actually looks more advanced because it's more compact. Still to me at least it seems the jump from Flutter to Sulhpur Bottom (which appear to be property of the relatively rich and privleged) is less than the jump from the Fultter to hoverbikes (that seem to be at least somewhat common place). In most cases miniaturization is more difficult than making things larger and usually more expensive to develop. So if the flutter's engine and the power plant are our known basis for holon technology, going to a hoverbike is quite a leap in miniaturization. Again. Draches. The Bonnes have a ton of them. They are small. They are not expensive (The Bonnes continue to have a ton of them even when they're broke), and as talented as Tron is, she's not the only one in the world that can make a small airship. Hoverbikes are just non-enclosed Draches. And to make things clear, I'm not arguing that the Carbons get their technology from the ruins. They certainly do, but the point is they've got already dug up plenty, and can reproduce what they've reverse-engineered to a certain extent. I agree that there's no form of internet, certainly no functional space program or satellite network, and even radio communication between islands doesn't seem to be easy. All the technology they do have fits though, including everything we've seen so far in MML3. It's that this apparent contention with what technology they should be allowed to have is centered on the hoverbike that bugs me, considering it's really such a minor twist on established designs.
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Post by in·clover on May 12, 2011 1:39:30 GMT -5
Oh, I like that bike, by the way. And I'm not seeing the sleekness in the cars, personally. Maybe because they're more the luxury type, and not sportsy or rugged like? They are way more modern, though. And Blues's example of 3-wheeled trucks aren't actually very futuristic. Just thought I'd mention. Has anyone mentioned Bola anywhere in this wall of text? Because between floating people and floating airships, floating bikes aren't so far fetched.
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Post by tominator on May 12, 2011 7:32:30 GMT -5
To be quite honest, it's not the technology of the bike and cars that I think is odd but rather the more modern "feel" they give. Futuristic gadgets like the Flutter and Draches seemed to be more of an exception than the rule in a otherwise simple looking world with mostly small towns. And again we went from blocky cars (no doubt from polygon limits in the original game) to ones with sheet metal work and fins and hoverbikes (which appear more modern to me).
It just seems to me that they are going with a more modern/futuristic art style in this game (much like Megaman's C armor in the voteing contest).
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