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Post by in·clover on Feb 2, 2009 2:46:43 GMT -5
...Or something similar? For a less modern civilization they sure do take on prostheses pretty well, and digger's armor generally has small sections and ball joints any healthy person would find impossible to fit into. Also, I was looking through the artbook for RMD1 and this caught my eye: I always wondered if they didn't find it important enough to set in stone and just left it intentionally ambiguous to the series' canon. Obviously Rock is "human" as seen in the intro to MML2, but his weapon attachments always seem to connect to his elbow, and cut off where his wrist would be. Prostheses like cranial plates, eye implants and the ever popular mechanical arm seem to be all over the place in this world (as seen on a handful of characters, but whatever). I'm sure this topic will be ignored or ridiculed, but I thought it was welcome discussion, after seeing comments like this that contradict how I see the characters in these games: Certain weapons have a habit of making it look like Roll maimed Megaman just for the sake of weaponry. Just look at the Shield Arm in Legends 2, for instance. That does not look comfortable at all.  I always thought the characters themselves were meant to be a newer kind of human and totally unlike the older fleshy kind, but after reading stuff like this over the years it's clear they never really explored this part of the game's fiction. Discuss. |
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Post by HF on Feb 2, 2009 4:25:34 GMT -5
While I believe cybernetic implants are used in Digouts*, I am pretty sure that the image shown is just for descriptive purposes of the option to "Tune Up" Rock, as mentioned in the text.
* I believe this is the case, considering characters which show evidence of modification such as Barrel and Tiesel. From a practical perspective, I believe these cybernetics provide features such as low light vision, magnification, enhanced focus and maybe even serve as a Geiger Counter.
Taking the original name for "Carbons" into consideration, they are defined as "Decoys" by the "higher-ups", so to speak (which brings the idea into further ambiguity).
One for sure though, Rock Volnutt, Roll Casket and Tron Bonne Revoltechs would sell like hotcakes.
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Post by Buster Cannon on Feb 2, 2009 13:44:53 GMT -5
It is an interesting question. It may be possible that diggers are simply 'modified' to fit special weapons and other gear onto themselves. It's unknown if Barrel's cybernetics were there when he was younger, but I'm pretty sure they give him some kind of benefit. Of course, I'm not even sure how Trigger fits into his armor in the first place, let alone the ability to use some of those weapons.
I also wondered if some were injury-related. Joe/Banner's robotic arm looks like it could be a complete replacement; he may have injured/lost his arm in battle. We also don't know if it has any combat capability or not, so it's hard to gauge.
I'm sure this topic will be ignored or ridiculed, but I thought it was welcome discussion, after seeing comments like this that contradict how I see the characters in these games: Certain weapons have a habit of making it look like Roll maimed Megaman just for the sake of weaponry. Just look at the Shield Arm in Legends 2, for instance. That does not look comfortable at all.
I think that a topic on this subject is long overdue, personally. It's one of those things that really has no in-game explanation, and just leaves us here to speculate.
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Post by mirak on Feb 2, 2009 14:06:55 GMT -5
We can figure that Carbons are not human, and Trigger's human body could have as well been prosthetic parts as well. As a general conclusion, digger's are treated and operated for them to have robotic parts suited for battle and exploration in ruins, i believe their torso and reproductive system is left untouched (because if not, how could Roll have been born), but even their heads can be operated.
There's not much to be debated about it. The "torso being left untouched" justifies that growth keeps going on, thus you can still age.
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Post by Pitch on Feb 2, 2009 14:15:59 GMT -5
I spent 15 minutes writing something up and realized you'd summarized it in a sentence in the first post.. oi.
Personally, I just go ahead and chalk up any abnormalities to poor graphics, or lack of any real consideration. Certain Special Weapons look the way they do, because that looks cool. Prostheses that appear to be the result of an injury, probably are. I'd pretty much have to agree, that if Capcom didn't care enough about it to describe it in-game, it's probably not anything worth speculating. However interesting the speculation is, Capcom could really go either way in the end. Or just go ahead and do something no one would've even considered. Or make something new up entirely. ... or never make another DASH game at all.
As for the artbook scan.. maybe they originally planned to have MegaMan more like a robot in the strict sense of the word, like Classic Rock and X before him. That's from DASH 1, during which we don't even hear the term Carbon used until the end, and even then we're not left with any good idea of what it means. That was interesting though; I'd never seen that before. Again, I'd just say they didn't think it through. It's not like Capcom to have big puzzling answers to these kinds of questions; it would be a great subject for fanfiction though.
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Post by in·clover on Feb 2, 2009 16:35:00 GMT -5
This is the interpretation I usually see in a Jap fan's doujin (sans the shoddy edit, and disregard the smut).It's in more tasteful fan stuff, too. I get the feeling either the Japanese version was more open about it or the Japanese audience just comes to expect it more due to their obsession with cyberpunk fiction, which often times focuses on the boundaries between man and machine. It's so embedded in their pop culture that it doesn't even need explanation. While I believe cybernetic implants are used in Digouts*, I am pretty sure that the image shown is just for descriptive purposes of the option to "Tune Up" Rock, as mentioned in the text. I got that impression at first, but it shows the insides, too. There's a thick cable running through small sockets connecting the individual segments of his arm. And yeah, the way Green put it, chances are they decided sometime during the first game's development to make him more human, or just got lazy and didn't feel it was important enough to touch on. But again, it's Japanese. They're known for making total nonsense out of their work and leaving numerous plot holes in their stories. If you watch anything out of Japan from the 80's or 90's they ----ing NEVER tie up loose ends, or even explain how things work in their little fictional universes.
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Post by Chiz on Feb 2, 2009 17:05:57 GMT -5
Well... *gasp* ...It's Chiz!  Short summary available at bottom for those TL;DR folkI personally liken the term Carbon to a derivitive or reference of Carbon copy... which was basically a duplicate made by writing/printing on special carbonized paper, and imprinting the ink on the carbonized paper on a paper beneath it. Most commonly used for things like cheques, where you might want a void duplicate for filing purposes...which would imply that the 'Carbons' are, in-fact, either 'clones' of humans from thousands of years prior to the series, or derivitives of some original human DNA (including but not limited to the Master's). Under this theory, 'Carbons' are for all intents and purposes 'human', thus would not be cybernetic or robotic in any way... ...unless they used implants, prosthetics, or enhancements for their work, all of which are not only plausable, but exist today. However, most-to-all of their technology would be derived from the reverse-engineering of the workings of reaverbots and ruins, lending the resultant technologies to have the same visual look (large, robotic, vaguely steampunk-ish). Trigger, on the other hand, (along with Yuna, Sera, Gats, Geetz, and Juno), since they hail from the system, their lineage would logically leaned more towards Reploids than Humans, however, that isn't to say that they are even close to the same sort of robotic tech that was employed during the earlier series. My suspicion would be that the actual entities are clusters of nanomachines (or a similar technology) that make use of specifically-made, biological-based bodies (potentially empty-shell Carbons). The nanomachines would govern most of the body's functions, and (from Sera, Gats, and Geetz) would include some ability to revert into a more 'traditional' robotic form. This brings up the side question: Could Trigger do this 'transformation'? Undoubtedly, however, certainly not in his current state during the games, where his knowledge of himself and Elysium have been archived to Data. It's unlikely that the biological bodies that the Elysian folk have are plug-and-play like the above picture (although their robotic forms potentially are), so it's unlikely that Trigger has screw-off/screw-on buster parts and armour. It's also fairly safe to say that he's not in his robotic form already, because it'd likely be somewhere inbetween the servitors or the mothers; either way, it wouldn't look anything near human and would probably completely freak out any carbon who saw him (not to mention blowing his chances with both Roll and Tron). Since the same armour is seen on a number of carbons (Teisel, Glyde, and Russell from MOTB all have relatively similar armours) we can make 2 assumptions, both of which are plausable: The first, although the more unlikely, is that Trigger has special digging prosthetic limbs that are not only geared towards digging, but they're hotswappable with other custom weaponry and even normal looking body parts (for casual settings). Entirely possible, since we don't know the extent of their prosthetic technology, but it would imply that there are a number of characters who have voluntarily replaced the majority of their bodies for the purposes of earning a couple bucks. (It's entirely possible that a few people would do it...I mean, there are weirdos in all walks of life...but I can't see it being a mainstream thing) The second is that, of course, the armour really is just a slip on suit, and that the entire original limbs exist in the devices (in the cases where the limbs still exist). This doesn't attempt to contemplate how much effort is involved in getting in and out of the armour, or the comfort of the wearer. And of course, in instances where a part of the body has been replaced, it'd be a relatively permanent implant to patch up an unhealable wound, like Joe losing an arm or Barrell having a particularly nasty head injury. ...and finally, just as an aside, since the above image came from an art book, not the actual games, it can't possibly be considered 'canon'. The (long) above explanation is under this assumption.
EDIT: Of course, there is another (possible) theory. Everyone could simply be robots that believe they're human, but have no real knowledge of what human actually is (with the exception of the Master, who is quite literally the last human)...so even looking inside a carbon during surgery and seeing reaverbot-esque circuitry and mechanics wouldn't get a second look, because it would simply be how it is, how it's always been to them. This theory would open up the possibility that their bodies are extremely augmentable, resulting in cases like Bon and Klaymoore that render the majority of their bodies mechanical (not that they aren't already, but simply outwardly mechanical and visibly non-human). This also means that the mechanical bits seen on various diggers and such are an analogue to scars, piercings, and tattoos...simply cosmetic changes, with little changing in function. Of course, this wouldn't be seen as odd, due to how it is rule above.
TL;DR: Carbons are cloned from humans; System folk including Trigger are cyborgs, but their biological bodies are just like humans/carbons so they don't come apart in pieces. Armour is likely just wearable. Reaverbot-based implants/prosthetics are available for injured carbons. Image at start of thread isn't canon.
Alternatively, everyone could be confused humanoid robots.
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Post by in·clover on Feb 2, 2009 17:30:29 GMT -5
EDIT: Of course, there is another (possible) theory. Everyone could simply be robots that believe they're human, but have no real knowledge of what human actually is...so even looking inside a carbon during surgery and seeing reaverbot-esque circuitry and mechanics wouldn't get a second look, because it would simply be how it is, how it's always been to them. This theory would open up the possibility that their bodies are extremely augmentable, resulting in cases like Bon and Klaymoore that render the majority of their bodies mechanical (not that they aren't already, but simply outwardly mechanical and visibly non-human). This also means that the mechanical bits seen on various diggers and such are an analogue to scars, piercings, and tattoos...simply cosmetic changes, with little changing in function. Of course, this wouldn't be seen as odd, due to how it is rule above.
This is pretty much my POV. It would be strange seeing an explanation of this through narrative or character dialog, simply because it's just how things are with them. It would be weird if everyday small talk included us talking about our guts and bones and muscles and the like. |
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Post by Chiz on Feb 2, 2009 20:45:05 GMT -5
This is pretty much my POV. It would be strange seeing an explanation of this through narrative or character dialog, simply because it's just how things are with them. It would be weird if everyday small talk included us talking about our guts and bones and muscles and the like. The closest we ever get is the Ira subplot in MML1, which mentions that Ira's " very ill, and has lost the ability to walk" and that " If [they] just had some more modern equipment here, [they] could probably cure her". It unfortunately mentions nothing really biologically-specific. It would be odd if this said alternative theory was the one revealed to be true. It might suggest that buried/locked away somewhere in the carbons' programming, the ability to turn into mecha-bots like the Elysian units exists...although in the instance of hyper-mechanized characters like Bon and Klaymoore, or any of the Bonne machines (in MML1 in particular), they're half-way there anyway. |
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Post by UNIT 0918 on Feb 2, 2009 23:11:26 GMT -5
I personally would like to think that the Carbons including Trigger don't have any modifications to them (Besides the obvious ones like Barrell and Joe.). I just like to think that it's just Capcom's unclear/lazy designs. I guess that's because I like to think that they're all "human", not robots.
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Post by in·clover on Feb 2, 2009 23:49:39 GMT -5
We're talking about Japan, here. Where people are robots and robots are people.
I don't see how that could possibly shatter anyone's image of them being human. Carbons are artificial people to begin with, anyway.
And by the by, you purchase "Bionic Parts" from stores in the game, further supporting my theory.
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Frankenpetey
Gorubeshu
Official MMLS Genre Sage
"It's for the family!"
Posts: 220
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Post by Frankenpetey on Feb 3, 2009 0:16:55 GMT -5
Man, I'm kind of wondering why we haven't had a topic like this, actually! Huh.
My mind always got stuck on the "based on the Master's genome" thing, so I always figured they were mostly human with some tweaks. Like, maybe, something about their immune system changed so they don't reject cybernetic parts, or the Master engineered heritable nanomachines for them, or something like that. The whole bit with Yuna using nanites from her own system to heal Carbons would suggest that perhaps Carbons are a sort of halfway point between humans and androids. Homo beta as opposed to Homo sapiens...? I don't know. :B
I always figured that the impossibly small joints in the armor was just Capcom's wacky art style talking, and that any prosthetic people had were the result of injury or disease. Barrell shattered part of his skull, Teisel went blind, Glyde went deaf, Joe lost his arm, etc.
The theory that they think they're human, and that humans are supposed to have steel and circuitry in them, is really interesting, though. It certainly clears up the Bon issue. I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around how a person would grow structures like that, since that would seem like a very unwieldy thing for an animal to have to do. There are some elements used in circuitry, too, that are only found in trace amounts, if at all, in our diets. Would Carbons have to create special supplements for these? Silicon? Gold? ...Lead?
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Post by Chiz on Feb 3, 2009 10:58:29 GMT -5
The theory that they think they're human, and that humans are supposed to have steel and circuitry in them, is really interesting, though. It certainly clears up the Bon issue. I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around how a person would grow structures like that, since that would seem like a very unwieldy thing for an animal to have to do. There are some elements used in circuitry, too, that are only found in trace amounts, if at all, in our diets. Would Carbons have to create special supplements for these? Silicon? Gold? ...Lead? Straight basic metals are associated with being excellent conductors, and would be required to expand any mechanical systems as they get bigger/grow...however, they're not associated with being sources of power. A robot could 'eat' bricks of metals all day, and potentially get bigger as a result, it wouldn't keep the robot going or " alive". We know they all eat normal human food, even those that don't look like humans at all (see various restaurants including Bronte's Vegetables, Jetlag Bakery, Bakery Sharkskin, Stripe Burger, the Yosyonke bar, the Nino bar; MML2s intro; various food items in MML2 including Picnic Lunch, Fried Chicken, the Candy Apple, the Candy Bar, the Strange Juice, the Pokte Tea, the Pokte Pastry, the the Pig which was threatened to be baconized in Nino; Servbots ordering lunches in MOTB). Indeed, if they had been purpose-built to resemble humans as much as possible (even superficially), then eating like a human would have to be a prerequisite. It's very likely that they have systems geared towards extracting/burning biologically-based fuel to power themselves, just like in real people. Also, since most food contains some metals anyway (particularly iron), they might only need supplements if they don't eat a balanced diet, again, just like real people. This also doesn't consider what sort of spices, seasonings, or exotic (to us) ingredients are used in the preparation of these foods. There could very well be certain elements that are used that are key in powering them - (crushed refractor glass on your burger, sir?) - even so far as being the only thing that powers them, the rest of the meal being completely thrown away during processing. (However, it's highly unlikely it's that extreme...if it were discovered that people only need X chemical to stay alive, I doubt a great number of them would continue eating what would effectively become both a luxury item and a waste of money when they could just consume the chemical in question in a pill form) EDIT: Concerning "... Servbots ordering lunches in MOTB...". If the people are actually robots, then it's very, very possible that the Servbots, are or were originally, as human as their 'mother', Tron, converted into the obvious bots they are in the games roughly around the ages of 6-10. Unsettling, disturbing thought: Tron, speaking of "her kids", wasn't at all figurative or metaphorical. If you can brave the mental images, that definitely explains at least one thing... EDIT 2: This whole post assumes (as well as the post it replies to) that the people (who are assumed to be robots) are fueled through consumption, Since we're working under the assumption they're robots, there's nothing stopping, say, their skin from being chalk-full of solar cells. The entire eating process could be completely useless, only doing it because they believe they need to do it. |
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Post by in·clover on Feb 3, 2009 16:39:56 GMT -5
What I always had in mind was that they weren't entirely robotic. Hence the bio in bionic. I was merely suggesting they might, as Chiz put it, be more "augmentable" and like FrankenPetey said, have a different immune system allowing them to take on mechanical parts. Like a robot made of flesh, not a human made of steel. I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around how a person would grow structures like that, since that would seem like a very unwieldy thing for an animal to have to do. There are some elements used in circuitry, too, that are only found in trace amounts, if at all, in our diets. Would Carbons have to create special supplements for these? Silicon? Gold? ...Lead? If this is the case, I don't think Capcom gave it much thought. The whole issue is pretty much glossed over in the games as it is, so if any of this is correct it's probably very simple. Roll eats bacon and eggs, that much we know. People eat shellfish in local taverns, fast food, etc. Even Servbots eat curry. Birdbots, fried chicken. I get the impression they're like us, just with a more crude design enabling their bodies to fuse with simple machines to the extent that they could potentially become entirely mechanical like Klaymoor or Bon. EDITRoll: "How many people do they have on that ship!?" ~Referring to the Birdbots on Nino island. In their day and age, robots can be considered people as well as eat the way we do, so I think that rules out the metallic elements for sustenance theory. |
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Frankenpetey
Gorubeshu
Official MMLS Genre Sage
"It's for the family!"
Posts: 220
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Post by Frankenpetey on Feb 3, 2009 17:16:07 GMT -5
Oh, I wasn't trying to say that carbons would live on metals. I should have been more clear. I'm just saying that in order for something like a gold wire "nerve" or a titanium "bone" to grow, there has to be a large supply of gold or titanium for the body to use. So there would have to be a way to get those materials into the body, and eating is generally the easiest way to do that. And while iron is pretty available for us in our diets, we really only need it for the hemoglobin in our blood. If we were trying to use it to make actual "organs" like a mechanical person, we'd need a lot more than we could easily get from meat and plants. A metal pump about the size of a human heart would weigh a few pounds right there... If Carbons are just downgraded androids (which I think is what we're working with, if I haven't gotten myself lost already), then that would make the birdbots/servbots and mechs pretty easy to design, since Carbons could just use what they knew about their own physiology to come up with the robots. And like you said, the servbots do eat food. ...Unless that's more of a psychological thing that the Bonnes use to assure them that they're considered part of the family rather than just pieces of equipment. I really couldn't say. But if they didn't really need to eat, I'd be curious to know how their scientists haven't stumbled upon that. Using solar cells, you'd think there would be a visible trend of people living near the poles being much less healthy than people living near the equator, or having an island survive a famine because they get lots of sunny days. I guess this all hinges on whether we think that Carbons are based on the Master or on androids like Sera and Trigger. If they're based on androids, then they can easily be completely mechanical people. If they're based on the Master's genome, then they'd need to be at least partially organic because the DNA, subtly changed or not, is going to code for proteins. Having Carbons be heavily mechanical under the Master theory is bugging me, since in most cases replacing the perfectly good organic system with a mechanical one would be hideously complicated and unnecessary. Though if they weren't based on the Master's genome, than I don't know why Trigger would have to look after it so closely, unless he was only supposed to keep it for archival purposes. Oh, I'm rambling.  Basically, I guess I'm agreeing with BRET. I think they're some variety of human that's compatible with machinery, and won't have some kind of allergic freak-out like we would. I don't think they're actually made of metal, since an organism made up of inorganic material isn't very practical. |
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Certain weapons have a habit of making it look like Roll maimed Megaman just for the sake of weaponry. Just look at the Shield Arm in Legends 2, for instance. That does not look comfortable at all. 
